Lead With That: What Lily Gladstone’s Golden Globe Award Win Can Teach Us About the Value of Representation

Interview Transcript 

INTRO:  

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

“Hello, all my relations. My name is Eagle Woman. I am Blackfeet. I love you.” Now, you may have heard this already and didn’t know it and I promise, when you heard it, it was much more eloquently said, but that’s how Lily Gladstone opened up her acceptance speech at the 2024 Golden Globes. Now, she said it in her native, Indigenous tongue, and Gladstone made history on January 7 by becoming the first person who identifies as Indigenous to win the best performance by a female actor in a dramatic film. I appreciate you, Golden Globes, for making that title really obnoxious. Set against the backdrop of a film that explores the dark and scary systemized and institutionalized inequities Indigenous Americans have had to endure for centuries, Lily’s win is more than a good news story.

As Lily said herself, “This is a historic win. This is for every little res kid, every little urban kid, every little native kid out there who has a dream, who is seeing themselves represented and our stories told by ourselves, in our words, with tremendous allies and tremendous trust, and with each other.” Today, Allison and I explore ideas like representation, why that matters in the workspace, and how you might help people understand why a Lily Gladstone win, is a win for all of us. Welcome back everyone in the new year, I’m Ren Washington and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, I know I hit you with a question first, but instead, happy New Year. Welcome back.

Allison:

Happy New Year. Happy 2024. When I was 16, I could never envision being in the year 2024, 2025. I just think about The Jetsons.

Ren:

I won’t even ask what year you were 16, but we’re young, we don’t have to date ourselves. What year was that?

Allison:

Oh, I don’t know. I’m doing math on the spot. It was a long time ago.

Ren:

You were told there’d be no math.

Allison:

You didn’t tell me we’re going to have to do addition, basic addition.

Ren:

I don’t know. God, what were we talking about? When was I 16? That was only 10 years ago.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

Rude. All right. There we go, Allison. We’re really excited to be back. And so, here’s the question sticking with that theme for this year along with the representation. When you think about that, what’s the first time you think about that you ever felt seen in the world around you? Is that a good enough prompt, or do I need to use the other ones?

Allison:

Seen?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Well, maybe you could clarify what do you mean by seen? And I think I know what you mean, but perhaps for our listeners.

Ren:

For sure, thanks. I think it’s that idea like the first time that you’ve maybe been seen in the world around you, where you looked up and you saw someone in a public image where you said to yourself, “That person looks like me, or that person’s like me, or maybe I see myself represented in there. Really, I see a future represented in that person.” Or maybe, as an option, that’s never happened because I had to really think about that one.

Allison:

Me too. I had to think about it too. And I remember being young and I can’t remember what age I was, but I loved soccer and I played soccer my whole life and Mia … Mia Hamm was that for me, and I remember her kicking a penalty kick, and I don’t think it was the World Cup, but some game that my parents had me watch. And I was so excited that there was a woman as an athlete being celebrated, because I really hadn’t seen that growing up.

Ren:

As an athlete, but did it represent anything else for you?

Allison:

Yeah, loosely it showed me, or made me feel like, success was attainable. I remember her … You know the victory position where athletes raise their arms up to the air and they’re —

Ren:

Uh-huh.

Allison:

… I don’t know how else to explain it, in celebration. She was talked about as a successful athlete and a successful woman. And I don’t know that I really knew what that meant as a young person, but it made me feel like that sort of emotion and that sort of celebration and success as an athlete was possible for me. Whereas my dad was very athletic … He still is a really athletic person. And so, when I was growing up, he would talk to me about athletes a lot, and not to fault my dad because I love him very much, but they were always men. And so, it was the first time that I heard really anyone celebrate a woman in that same way.

Ren:

I think that’s some of what I’m excited to talk about today. There’s a couple dynamics, I think, at play when you explore those 2 ideas. I think maybe one of which is, what is the pervasive dialogue or narrative, and then why could a different one matter? And I think Lily’s win is interesting. Now, I always have my reservations about why institutions give the little guy a shot, but that’s my own nihilism, as you and I will talk more about, but also sometimes my own cynicism. But I really want to explore, maybe for the first time, some people are experiencing why representation matters because, maybe for the first time in their lives, they aren’t having it in a way they’ve grown accustomed. Now I wonder, does that bring … What do you think about that?

Allison:

Well, can you just say more about what you mean about being accustomed?

Ren:

Yeah, perfect. I’ll give you a perfect example. I was talking to a friend of mine, and he works in this industry of human development, and we were talking about a promo video that a company that we both follow had shot and it’s one of those “we’re here and we work and we’re for the people” and it’s got images of smiling faces. And at the end of it we were talking and I said, “What’d you think about that video?” As I get, nihilist and cynic, I thought, I don’t know if it’s saying anything. And he said, “I can’t see a White guy in it.”

And it was an interesting commentary because this friend of mine, he’s a White guy, and as a practitioner in leadership development, but also an equity, diversity, inclusion practitioner, that’s one of my biggest big bugaboos. It’s my biggest hurdle not to react like the most aggressive snapping turtle at, “But what do you mean there’s no White guy?” That’s exactly what I mean there. Maybe it’s like someone was telling me “I don’t feel represented,” and I had to get over whatever my reaction was to hear that I wasn’t represented.

Allison:

That’s interesting. Well, may I ask how you responded to that?

Ren:

Well, it’s not the first time that he and I have spoken and I asked, “Well, how many more White faces would it have taken for you to feel more represented?” Now, we have a candid enough relationship that it was a fast enough conversation where we couldn’t explore it further. But I think that’s what you and I are here to do. And I think what I’m keen to do is say, well, I could understand his point of view, and, from a representation standpoint in the workspace, I can understand why some people are reticent. I shared an article with you basically telling us that DEI out in the world is dying because it’s no longer in the zeitgeist. People aren’t spending money on it because, well, is there a problem? Does representation matter? And it seems to matter.

Allison:

Well, it matters to your friend, because he’s highlighting that it matters, which is interesting.

Ren:

But why might that be a hard pill to swallow? Because I know when we both hear the idea, I couldn’t see a White face in there. I’m curious, let’s explore that in the context of why Lily Gladstone’s win is more than just a, well, come on, the hand-me-out.

Allison:

Well, I can’t help but back us up as we talk about humans, because this representation, like I mentioned to you, you asked me that question, when was the first time I felt seen or represented? I was young, I don’t know how old I was, but I might’ve been in fourth grade or third grade. I was really young. And so that triggered me to look into this a little bit from a human development perspective. And from a career and human development perspective, there’s researchers that found that aspirations vary based on gender, race, and socioeconomic status, of course. However, what I found was 36% of children from as young as 7 years old base their career aspirations on people they know. And for those who didn’t, who were not part of that 36%, 46% stated that TV, film, radio were the biggest factors influencing their choices and what direction they can take.

And from there, from a psychological perspective, it can be really difficult at a young age to have the confidence to pursue professional goals, and even to have ideas of what goals are available to you to pursue, when you don’t see people that share your same identities in those positions. And there’s a famous quote by a woman named Marian Wright Edelman, excuse me. And she said that you can’t be what you can’t see, and that is in essence what she’s talking about. It’s important for so many reasons, because your brain is going to identify with what you see and what you read about in terms of what’s possible. Now, it doesn’t always mean that that’s not possible for you just because you can’t see it, but it gives you a cue as to what’s possible for you based on your identity.

Ren:

And I think you and I absolutely understand and agree with that. And anyone who’s likely to listen to us long enough understands the principle undergirding that. And I’m trying to navigate some of the reaction to, now that we are represented or representation is tilting, some of the reaction that Lily Gladstone is, well, what’s the big deal? Who cares that she spoke in Blackfeet? Who cares that the story, let alone, was another story about people being displaced and not investigated because they were being othered. But I think I wonder, too, with all that history and baggage as a practitioner, I’ve got to navigate someone saying, “Well, representation doesn’t matter to them, but it does matter to me.”

And I think part of what I get to unpack is … You said something that was impactful as you’re reflecting around what I see impacts how I experience the world. I can imagine for this person, or for other people like them, what they see now are people, women, and people of color being hired over men and all of a sudden they’re like, “Well, I’m a White guy, and in front of me I see White dudes being dashed left and right, and I see White guys being misplaced and displaced, and now what about me?” And I’m trying to channel the reality of those feelings and trying to also navigate the truth of our environment.

Allison:

And I think some of the language that you just used, I hear too, and it’s not that women and people of differing races are being hired over other people, over White men, for example, it’s that they’re now being considered and being included. Just because there’s representation does not mean that there’s anything being taken away, necessarily, from somebody else. Yes, there’s only one winner of that award, of course, but it just means that that demographic and that identity is now being considered and included, whereas it wasn’t historically.

Ren:

I vibe with that a billion percent because I don’t like math, but something I say in my bio, and then I try to tell people, it’s like, I wish we could get away from this zero-sum mentality where “if we lift someone else, well that means that we must be lowering me.” And you asked me what I said to my friend when he responded to that video, and I think the root of my response, if we had time to go into it, well, we say this idea of, “Well, what kind of equity would you be seeking, because there were loads of men in that video?”

And then of course I started thinking about the brilliant science of intersectionality and the experience of marginalization at all these different nexus points. And so it gets me starting to think about these real conversations that we get to have with one another around maybe the things that matter most to them and how we’re sharing some of the same experiences. And then if we can tap into them of that sameness, then we can move away from some of that othering. I think that’s where I’m trying to get to is, how can we get closer, so then when we can recognize that when someone wins this, and they talk about the importance of winning it, we can lift that message as opposed to bringing it down?

Allison:

Why do you think people are feeling threatened by that type of conversation?

Ren:

I think it’s because it’s a departure from the status quo, which was … and I’ve had a lot of conversations too, I think, around male and White privilege from a lot of White and male people who are like, “I’ve never experienced privilege because of my Whiteness or my maleness. If anything, I’ve only been marginalized for it.” I think this might be my friend’s point of view. He’s never got a leg up. He probably can’t see some of the institutional experiences that marginalized peoples might be able to see, or he doesn’t agree with them, which is his right. But I think it’s likely the status quo shifting, and then there is probably no light at the end of that tunnel. And if I was to get too Freudian about it, I’d probably say the subconscious is like, “Is anyone else seeing what the rest of us are seeing? This is bad news bears, what if they do what we did?” But that’s me being a cynic and nihilist. I don’t know, is that a good answer?

Allison:

Yeah, it’s a great answer. And it’s a hard question, because there’s probably a dozen to a million answers to that question. And privilege is an interesting concept too, because it doesn’t mean that me as a White person, it doesn’t mean that I have not experienced hardship. It means that the hardship that I experienced was not because of the color of my skin.

Ren:

The wholeness.

Allison:

In a nutshell. And I know you know this. I know you know this already, but it’s interesting, and where my brain went with this too, which I told you a little bit earlier before we started recording, was that I wanted to practice what I preach and start listening more to perspectives that are vastly different than mine. And so I did that. I got on the Google, and I Googled some things that I don’t believe, that are not real for me, and watched interviews. And that was a real lesson and practice for me in controlling my emotional response to these types of conversations, because some of the interviews that I listened to were describing representation and inclusivity in ways that are, to me, not the definition of either of those things. And so I was watching a video so I couldn’t chime in, which is probably good, but it was a good exercise for me on maintaining composure as if I was there, to be able to have a conversation with someone who perhaps doesn’t see these types of initiatives as being valuable, or sees them as something that they’re not.

Ren:

All right, so now here we go everyone, we’re going to land the plane into what we can do as people who work in this world. And so, Allison, that’s what I want to tap into. It’s like, what were you trying to compose yourself against?

Allison:

Literally? Do you mean literally the things I was hearing?

Ren:

Maybe not so much the direct things that were being said, but you were trying to steel yourself against some reaction, and you were reacting to, in part, some misinformation. Maybe that’s it. What were the themes that you’re reacting about? Less so about the content, but it’s also the energy behind it, the way it’s communicated.

Allison:

Big picture, the conversations were around topics of EDI being discrimination. This is actually discrimination. And I felt my heart rate speed up and my face getting flushed, because that’s not what EDI initiatives are all about. And I wanted so badly to be in that room to say, “As somebody who’s somewhat educated in this space …” Or maybe I wouldn’t even say that part, but, “Can I give you a different perspective?” And that took me then down a rabbit hole, which we might get into or might not, which is what is the intention behind people who believe these things? The people who are saying that EDI is actually discrimination, what is the intention behind spreading that messaging, and what can we do about it? That’s a much bigger topic than being at the workplace.

However, if I were at the workplace, and I am, I have those conversations with clients a lot, which feels different to me for some reason. And I’m not sure why, but it’s like I’m at work and I’m expected to maintain composure, and so I can very, very well, I don’t know why. And being curious, it’s really about to me being curious, “Okay, can you tell me more about what you mean by that?” And oftentimes we’re on the same page. I just had a conversation with somebody, a client, who said they were concerned about where this country, being the United States, was headed. I won’t get into the nitty-gritty, but when I was curious, we were actually on the same page, even though her point of reference was very different than mine.

Ren:

Well, something you said there is something I absolutely believe in the context of all of this is that we’re so much more closely binded to one another than separated. That when given time to move past the flushed face or the blood pressure rising, or what I would just consider just our utter lack of preparation and training and having meaningful conversations, is being able to recognize that truth, that there are probably certain attachments to certain identities that maybe we don’t need to hold onto. As you were talking about your own experience and you were saying, “Well, I don’t know why I can’t compartmentalize it in my personal life as well as I can in my work life.” And I’m like, well, I’m not a trained psychologist, but I think we could probably pull that together pretty effectively, you and I, and probably find out that maybe the stakes are higher in certain places.

And then, I think as we shift the conversation to what you can do, listener, if you’re leading teams or participating in this conversation, if your cheeks get flushed no matter where you fall in the argument, is how can we create an environment where we understand our experiences, that it makes sense, and then we start to say, well, where are you feeling value? And then where are you feeling fear? You asked me, where do you think people’s fear or apprehension comes from? It’s probably this value, well, what about me now? And I think every human cares about themselves in the context of how they need to provide for who they need to provide for.

Allison:

Well, if I could, going back to your original question, which was about being seen. Can you answer that same question?

Ren:

Yeah. It was a fun exploration for me because I actually, on the surface, I thought, no, that wasn’t a problem for me, because I’m a man, a White presenting in this world, there was imagery of me everywhere. There was never even the frame of reference to not be seen, that I was always seen. The world had been built around me being seen. I was having a conversation with my father some years ago during COVID. We were talking on the phone and he was revealing to me in these rare glimpses of his humanity. Sorry, Dad. And he was just talking about how he’s like, “Dude, I never saw …” — because we were talking about race — he was like, “I never saw myself anywhere. And the only places I did see myself were the villain.” Because in the 80s and 90s, Black dudes were the villains. And he was a sci-fi guy, so for him, the only Black characters in Star Trek were the Klingons. And Klingons are these warmongering, bad-languaged, miserable dudes. And they gentrified Worf. And so he was okay, because he’s “one of us.”

And so it was such an interesting frame of reference, but for me, maybe the earliest reference I have was a football player named Washington. And I asked my dad, “Hey, are we related?” He said, “That doesn’t exactly work like that.” I think for me, what it does is give me empathy to understand that I’ve had a foot in both worlds, where I’ve lived a life where I’ve only ever seen myself. And someone even beginning to say, “Well, now we’re going to displace you.” Naturally, my human fear response would be like, “Wait, how badly, and why?” And just a general fear of does displacement mean dismemberment? And then I have my father’s point of view, which is Black guys are villains a lot, and people of color have often experienced that in any kind of White story. That’s my long and convoluted answer to your question.

Allison:

Well, you said displacement. Why is there a threat of displacement?

Ren:

I think it’s some of what we said earlier, a zero-sum response that if I lift others, what is left for me? And naturally, if I could just play devil’s advocate, my friend said, “Well, where are the White faces in this video?” Now, I’d have to watch it again. I think there were some White faces. I don’t know if the nexus of White male was met, and then you may need to have a larger conversation about all the other White men faces that you’ve seen for your entire life. But in that specific example, I could reasonably ask, “Well, he’s speaking to what a lot of people have been speaking to, that they’re not included.” And so I could reasonably say, maybe the pendulum has swung so far to the other way that, in a practice of inclusion, we’re excluding people.

Allison:

Well, I think people make errors, naturally. That happens, but I think they’re probably not frequent, and that’s such an … And I wish we could get your friend on here because I would be so curious. To me, he’s highlighting exactly the point, and I would want to ask him, “Tell me why it’s important for you to see White faces?” And he probably would highlight exactly what we’re saying. And when we’re talking about … Well, you didn’t say inclusion, you said representation, but all of this is important because we’re not talking about getting rid of difference necessarily. It’s about recognizing and valuing the differences instead. And about accepting that individuals are original and, at the workplace at least, building a culture where it’s something that’s acknowledged and addressed rather than avoided, so we’re not trying to avoid that there is diversity in the room, we’re trying to encourage it.

And I think what that can look like is that the “whole person” air quoting, the “whole person” and the whole work environment are relevant to an organization’s success. If we’re boiling it down to numbers and success, time and time again, it’s been researched and highlighted that diversity, inclusion, representation helps an organization. It doesn’t mean we’re taking positions away from people. It means that we’re hiring the right person now with everybody in mind and getting rid of our bias that White men, for example, should be in leadership positions, period, end of story. It’s really about opening the door to what’s possible. I don’t know. How does that sit with you?

Ren:

Well, I think the challenges for practitioners like you and I, for people on the front lines, opening the door for what’s possible for us is fielding someone who’s feeling unrepresented as if they’ve completely disassociated from their years of representation. And who knows? That’s conjecture from me right now, because that’s not fair to that person. We didn’t get into that. It was a commentary. And also this is also the kind of relationship where we poke at each other and we’ll make jest of the zeitgeist. There’s a lot of context to be held, but I think ultimately it’s actually the impetus of what I want to do. I want explore a podcast series around some of that. Interview some people exploring what I think is this transition where we talk about why representation matters because people, I think, implicitly understand it. What we’ve got to do is shepherd that understanding to then action where we go, “Oh, I shouldn’t be fearful of Lily’s success. I should be happy for her success because it’s a representative of the fact that more of us are getting a chance to win.”

It almost is like my friend who had never … It’s like the thing I said earlier, guys who’ve never experienced male or White privilege. The more we can flatten that, the more experiences of joy they’re going to have. The less imbalance there will be generally, because even that thing only really privileges certain people. That White male privilege is really reserved for only certain White males in the world. I think it’s always been that way. We saw it in the Constitution. Men were created equal, and by that we meant property-holding men — and clearly White men. It’s like there was always this restriction by maybe this idea that representation matters. We hold a safe space for him to say, “I don’t feel seen.” And we go, “I understand. It stinks.” Like you said, he’s highlighting the issue, and people have felt that for a long time, so let’s all work together to make sure no one feels that pain. Maybe that’s it.

Allison:

And I can think of a family member of mine who’s argued with me about privilege and that it doesn’t exist. And she’s had it really hard. And the truth is she’s had hardship in her life. That is true. That’s absolutely true. And for her, what it comes down to, I won’t name her, but what it comes down to is that because of her hardship and that some of the things that she’s experienced, she has been treated like she’s invisible. She has. Not because of the color of her skin, so it’s different. It’s different. As a woman, she’s felt that way, and that’s her reality. And so when she hears “privilege,” it’s interpreted into her brain as like, “Now I’m even less valued. I was devalued already. I was invisible already, and now I’m becoming more invisible.”

And that’s not necessarily the case. We do these experiences in our programs, Ren, that I know you’ve done too around social identity. It’s so powerful when people share their social identities. And you might not hear these dramatic, awful things. You might not hear that, but it does highlight the humanity and what people’s life experiences are. And the fact of the matter is that Indigenous women have a lot more hardships than I do as a White woman, a lot more. And the dramatic consequences of those hardships are losing their lives. Yes, I’ve had some hardships, yes, but I’m not being murdered.

Ren:

And then we’ve got to keep the balance. I think what we have been talking about and what’s necessary in these places is that we’ve got to remind that statement can be true, and your family member’s suffering can be true, at the same time. Not only can they be, they have to be true if we are ever going to do any good work that matters about making a difference for people. And maybe that’s why we try to have this conversation of why representation matters versus trying to grab people by the lapel and just, “What do you mean? I don’t understand what you’re saying.” But this idea, no, we’re on the same side. No one wants to feel pain. We all want to feel acceptance. Recognition of someone else’s pain is not a degradation of your own pain.

Allison:

Exactly. Exactly. And I think too from … We could talk about this all day, but I think what people understand about why it matters is the incorrect belief that focusing on representation or really any EDI initiative, again, is encouraging the discrimination of those who are not in that group. And that’s absolutely not the case. It’s more of what you just said. It’s about being aware, really, from the individual out. It’s about being aware of my own bias, for example, acknowledging that we all don’t have the same access to education, support, housing, experiences, et cetera.

And really this is positing that all team members, if we’re talking about the workplace, all team members are treated equitably, feel a sense of belonging and value, and have the resources and the support they need to achieve their full potential. Even if we’re talking about me and you, Ren, I need different resources than you do to maximize my potential. We’re just different people. We have different brains, period. That’s what it’s about.

And I know it’s a lot more than that and I’m simplifying, but I think when you’re fed messages over and over and over again, regardless of who is telling you those messages, if you’re seeing the same messages over and over again, you start to believe them. And there’s psychology behind that as well. If I’m being fed messaging that I’m being discriminated against as a White person, over and over and over, I’m going to start believing that. Our brains are quick, which can sometimes work against us. And sometimes we don’t have time to do the research of whether or not that’s true. And I don’t know. I think it would serve us all to slow down a little bit and take a step back and ask ourselves, is this true for me? Is this actually true? Is Lily winning that award taking anything away from me? If my answer is yes, then what is it taking away from me? And really challenging our own beliefs and what we hear.

Ren:

And I think a great way to challenge our beliefs, and especially we’ve cited him before, and I’ll cite him again, Barry Oshry, this power and systems thinking. This idea that when you and I engage in a system, one of the biggest pains that we have is that we just don’t understand each other’s world. And the more we learn about each other, the more we can ease each other’s condition. The more I learn about your experiences and believe them, the better off we’re going to be. And I think most people are well-meaning, and maybe that’s the root of why I brought my friend into this conversation, is I’ve got to believe his experience and feel his pain and then channel that into the right space, regardless of the history.

I’ve got to move past that and have a different focus group therapy session about that, but instead, cultivate an environment to say, that pain really burns and it stings. How can we create a future where it’s not like that? And so in a workspace, when someone tells you that a part of the work sucks, or their job really is tough, or that they’re underwater, then they’re rarely fabricating those instances. Now, you might recognize that they have behaviors or habits they can shift, but part of what you need to do first is say, “I feel you. That is painful. How can we partner together so there’s less pain?”

Allison:

Wouldn’t that be powerful? Well, permission to put you on the spot, and if you don’t like it, we’ll just tell Ryan to edit it.

Ren:

Ryan, get ready.

Allison:

As somebody who has interracial parents, what do you want people to understand about your life experience?

Ren:

That sometimes third-culture kids, they’re called third-culture because they never really fully represent one part of their familial dynamic, nor do they represent the other part, so there this third culture, often for me, and those I’ve talked to, we’ve never been enough. For me, I’ve never been Black enough, I’ve never been White enough. And so typically, that can echo through all of our relationships. From that standpoint, from a representation standpoint, healthy interracial people show me that, yes, they’re enough, but also occasionally, especially in your personal relationships, if you’re dealing with someone who has interracial history, that might be playing out for them, so a recognition of the enoughness and the wholeness. I think I’ve moved past my racial hangups, but I haven’t been hypnotized yet, so who knows what’s lying in this subconscious? But I think that’s what I would say.

Allison:

Thanks for letting me put you on the spot like that.

Ren:

Thanks for asking. I appreciate it.

Allison:

And again, we’re simplifying here, but to have those types of conversations at the workplace, who is it, tell me who it’s hurting. It’s not … Well, is it hurting anybody?

Ren:

I think you’re getting to an important part that we likely just need to be having conversations of, what is fair play? And holding space in certain spaces for us to explore these things. And really also, I’m reminded, you have to do your own research because Lily Gladstone is just a small piece of a larger puzzle. The movie that she was a part of that it tells, Killers of the Flower Moon, is just a horrendous story of a people continued to be abused by a system of oppression, and specific to her Indigenous and racial group, maybe not her Indigenous group per se because the Osage people versus the Blackfeet. But it’s so interesting that — get educated. If you care, get educated, and then be intentional with your colleagues and friends and say, “What kind of conversation needs to happen?” And I know we say that a lot sometimes on this show, get educated and make the environment, but the fact that people are mad that Lily won or think that it’s just a hand-me-out because she’s an Indigenous woman, might speak to a larger issue. And so maybe it bears repeating.

Allison:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And find out for yourself too. Go watch the movie then. My guess is that a lot of people who —

Ren:

Yes, carve out 4 hours of your existence. I’m sorry.

Allison:

That’s okay. But my guess is that — and again, this is presumptuous of me — but people who say that kind of stuff maybe haven’t even seen the film. Anyhow, I digress. But it takes work to challenge our own beliefs, and humans, myself included, we like sameness. We like to be around people who have the same interests. We like to be around people who validate our experiences. But we love to be around people who validate our opinions. And so, what would it look like for you to hear from somebody different? What would that mean for you? And it doesn’t mean, like you said, Ren, that just because somebody has a different experience than you, that your experience then becomes invalidated. That’s not what that means, and that’s not what representation means either, or inclusivity.

Ren:

I love it. And that is actually something I wanted to pull on you that I just thought because I was inspired by you, as I often am. I know sometimes we think about, what’s a takeaway for everyone that they can zoom in on this thing. And I was wondering, instead, maybe we could try to focus on, we work with smart people who are facing big challenges all the time. And you just mentioned a big challenge. Challenge yourself to get out of the comfort of listening to people who say, “Yes, you’re a brilliant person.”

Because remember, multiple truths can be so: I can be brilliant, and I can have people in my life that don’t think I’m brilliant. I’m wondering if we were thinking about challenges, and maybe our shift now towards the end, it’s like, what are some of the challenges that we’re trying to overcome this year? What are some of the skills, tactics, things we’ve learned, things we’re reading, things we’re watching that are helping us get over that hump? And maybe we could take that piece by piece, and that is a little bit of a takeaway for everyone as we wrap up. What do you think about that?

Allison:

Do you mean our individual challenges? Is that what you mean?

Ren:

Yeah. Continuing to pretend that —

Allison:

Let’s get real.

Ren:

… I’m really not a robot. I’m not part of the AI overtaking, although it wouldn’t hurt if you liked the episodes, because the robots remember.

Allison:

Your picture does exist on the internet. I’m just saying, so you are real.

Ren:

I know it does, but is it alive? Well, is that me though, or is that an AI image?

Allison:

We’ll never know. Only I know that answer.

Ren:

You do know that answer. You’re breaking —

Allison:

And your wife, of course. What is the question you would like me to answer? And then you will answer as well.

Ren:

Well, I’m just trying to find edges where we’re pushing ourselves. And so it’s the new year. Often people say, “I’m going to try to do this thing. It’s New Year’s resolution. I’m going to try to challenge this goal.” And so maybe that’s the plan there, Allison. Currently, you just said something I really was inspired by, as it relates to this work, as it relates to representation. Push yourself to get out of the circles that just agree with you. Regardless of where you fall in the argument, push yourself to talk to someone new maybe, or talk to someone that challenges your point of view. And so maybe in the spirit of that, something that I’m personally working on is trying to change my relationship with my phone, which is really a boundaries exercise.

And so I no longer use it as my alarm clock. It is put off away on a windowsill, and I have one of those sunrise alarm clocks. And then I try not to touch it for the first 90 minutes of the day, and I just leave it on its windowsill post. I get up, I do my thing, and it’s amazing how productive I am. Now, admittedly, this is one of those Huberman tactics for success, but I started to do it, something I want to keep doing. And so that’s the challenge that I’m trying to overcome, create some more boundaries around the things that are just habitual. Downtime? Oh, lift my phone up, and then before I know it I’m like, “Couldn’t that 5 minutes have been better spent doing something productive, or healthy, or positive for my existence?” Usually, the answer is yes.

Allison:

I like it. Yes. Well, I am not a big “resolutioner.” However, something I’ve been more intentional about as of lately is to slow down and to what I call soften. I am guilty of coming up with what I would like to say while I’m listening, so I’m actually not listening, and I want to be more intentional about my conversations with people. And this is inside the workplace and external to the workplace, and to soften my edges a little bit. I like dialogue, and I actually like debate quite a bit too, but it doesn’t always have to be that way. You could ask Roger about that. We have to debate everything, like the way the dishwasher is loaded. But anyhow, that’s something —

Ren:

I know. I just reorganize it.

Allison:

I refuse. See, I won’t do it. I will not reorganize. Anyhow, that’s where I need to soften, I suppose. But I think is more intentional in my relationships. And this is inclusive of our conversation today, but also much bigger. I do want to hear you. I do want to experience you as a person. I don’t want to be in my head all the time where I’m constantly, “What am I going to say to that? What’s next? What do I want to think about this?” It’s not always relevant to the conversation I’m having with you or whomever.

Ren:

Or rarely relevant for the growth that you are likely invested in. It’s that thing I always tell people, “You want to be right, or do you want to be better?” And you’re right to be righteously mad, to get your cheeks flushed and to be like, are you nuts? And then instead, you got to table that, and maybe those are the edges you’re talking about softening, and what a great way to tie it back to where we’re at. As we feel these conversations of representation, whether you think there’s too much representation happening or not enough representation happening, maybe you need to just put some space between you and your reactions and just see like, okay, I want to hear you.

That’s when I appreciate that. It’s like, I want to listen to you. It reminds me of a goal that I have just for myself maybe just generally, my life’s work is to be the person I want to be, regardless of how people are around me. Can I treat you the same way I would if you liked my idea versus if you don’t like my idea?

Allison:

Ooh, I like that.

Ren:

A very simple … Can I be the same person that I want to be, whether you like me or not? And I’ll let you know how it goes.

Allison:

Please do. Please do. And I want to clarify, because I know that other people have been in the same boat as me, where their heart starts to race and their cheeks flush, and all of that. That reaction I identified more as, “I don’t have a voice here and they’re talking about me” versus “I am not trying to challenge what you’re saying necessarily.” These people that I was watching on video, of course, is what I’m talking about. These are the things that are important to clarify too. It’s a small thing, but when you’re in conversations around representation, inclusivity, or anything at all, trying not to identify or put a definitive answer to someone else’s reactions. And I’m not faulting you for doing that, Ren, but it can be a really good idea to be like, okay, like SBI, I’m noticing your cheeks are red.

I’m noticing that you’re a little flushed. What’s going on for you? Versus leaving that table, leaving that meeting, leaving the workplace and being like, oh, Allison was aggressive and emotional, or whatever. Doing our best to be more human with one another and in connection. And I know that’s corny. I know that, just allow me to be corny for a minute, but it helps. If someone can tell me how that hurts, I will stand corrected. But it will help you. It will help you in so many ways, not only just in your existence and experience at the workplace, but when you leave and how you relate to other people.

Ren:

Tell her in the comments. All right.

Allison:

That was a bit of a rant, so thanks for letting me.

Ren:

I love it. I love it. I’m with you. Good way to start the year.

Allison:

Good way to start the year. And I don’t know, I think we could continue on and on for hours if we weren’t careful, so is this a good place for us to stop? Maybe we can pick it up next time.

Ren:

I think so.

Allison:

Great. Well, to our listeners, we hope that you’ve had a happy New Year. We thank you for listening. As always, you can find our podcasts and show notes on ccl.org. You can find us on LinkedIn, tell us what you think about this episode, tell us what you want us to talk about. And as always, a special thank you to Ryan and Crystal — we’re adding Crystal to the mix now — and Emily, who work behind the scenes to make this podcast happen. Thanks, Ren. I look forward to our next conversation.

Ren:

Thanks, Allison. Thanks, everybody. See you next time. Find Allison on TikTok, I’ll never forget it. Also, like us on Spotify, I think there’s 5 likes.