Lead With That: The Dutton Family and Expanding Leadership Perspective

Interview Transcript

Intro:

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast Lead With That. We talk current events and pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

Manager madness is almost over, Allison, where we one by one discuss public figures, real or fictional, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top. Saddle up. Yes, the Western puns have already begun. Saddle up for our second place finisher, the Duttons’ founding fathers and mothers.

Now I am thrilled and excited to talk about this one because 1883 was my jam. It took a long time for me to get on the bandwagon of Yellowstone, and then we went to 1883 because we didn’t have Paramount, or I think Yellowstone sold itself. Then we watched 1883. Then 1923, and we’re like, give me more Yellowstone. So there are so many things to look at with these rugged, resilient, and remarkable leadership styles from the world of 1883. I think that’s where we’re going to spend most of our time today.

We’ll talk a lot about all these characters, but definitely some of my faves, like Elsa, a young woman whose bravery and tenacity shines through in every challenge. Her spiritual and expositional guidance through the first story really is marked by her courage and quick thinking that saves lives. It really shows that leadership isn’t about age or experience, but really about heart and grit.

Now, her journey counter and intertwine with James Dutton, the reluctant and singular-minded pioneer leader, and her father, was really, really interesting. His determination to carve out a better life for his family amidst all this danger and uncertainty is nothing short of inspirational or maybe just crazy stubborn. Either way, I think it’s fair to think about his leadership style grounded in duty and sacrifice.

Then when we look at his counter, the matriarch of the Dutton family, Margaret’s strength and unwavering support for her family make her a beacon of resilience and compassion. Her ability to lead with both her heart and her head reminds us that true strength often lies in our ability to care deeply for those we lead.

Then we’ve got Shea Brennan, a favorite. The grizzled guide with a heart of gold. Shea’s leadership is marked by his deep sense of duty and his ability to inspire those around him, even in the direst circumstances. His calm under pressure, his vast experience navigating the treacherous trail, really highlight the importance of wisdom and mentorship and leadership.

So stick with us as we talk about some of our faves and a whole bunch more and maybe just the show. So welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, what do you think about the Oregon Trail?

Allison:

When I think about the Oregon Trail, I think about being very young. I can’t remember how old I was, but I remember my older sisters playing the, do we dare even call it a video game? I don’t even …

Ren:

Yes.

Allison:

Computer game.

Ren:

What? Computer game?

Allison:

I remember that game and my older sisters playing, and you were trying to avoid dying of dysentery.

Ren:

Yeah. And botulism.

Allison:

Given the circumstances, and wagons always breaking down and horses dying, and that’s what I remember. What about you?

Ren:

Yeah, that’s funny. I think I had much the same experience. I guess in the context of 1883, and, folks, I want to spoil so much of this, but if you haven’t watched it, you got to watch it. Stop listening right now, go watch all of 1883, then come back because it’s going to be hard not to spoil.

I think the way that this show approached the loss and abundance of loss, I was reminded like, oh, I remember the Oregon Trail. That was a journey of a lot of pain and sorrow, and your wagon sinking, and people getting bitten by snakes. Then I’m like, oh, this show.

I guess there weren’t that many people who really made it. So braving it through the wilds was something that I think about the Oregon Trail. Or really, I think the more I played around, the more I felt like Elsa, this idea of wanting to let go of the rules and just live in this wide expanse where I could feel home.

Maybe thinking about that, if you had to pick your favorite 1883 Dutton or peripheral character, who would you choose? Then if you had to work with them or work for them, what would you be excited about and what would you be worried about?

Allison:

Well, Elsa is absolute, hands down, my favorite. I almost want to hold her off to later in the show, so I don’t know how much I want to say about her just yet. Again, if you haven’t watched the show, go watch it, because it’s going to be very hard for, I think with Elsa at least, it’ll be hard for me not to spoil certain things.

What I’d be excited about is that she does question things, and I could see in the workplace her questioning things in a way that helps us to advance and questions norms and, “Well, why are we doing it this way?” She’s brave. She takes risks.

And I think that would be a really interesting leader to work for, especially given some of the circumstances that we are in, in the economy and the globe. I think that would be fitting. I think you asked me what I would be nervous about, and it’s a catch-22 because it’s a bit of the same. Her best is also her worst, I think.

Ren:

Well, I hear you. We’re saving Elsa for the end, because she’s amazing and there’s so many things I want to talk about, especially her hard H. Man, that show’s just so great. I don’t know if I’d want to work … I could see working with Elsa as a cowboy, that was part of the story. She was a really prolific rider, and maybe if she was out there, that’d be fun.

I’m torn between James or Shea. I think I see a lot of myself in James, and maybe as my leadership styles evolve, I start to bring more people into my circle. But James is like, “Dude, it’s my family and I’ll help where I can, but there was only one thing that matters to me.” I’m like, oh gosh, I hope I’m not that callous. So I was like, I could see he and I working really well together. Because we’d be really clear on what mattered to us, and we wouldn’t take it personally.

There’s something about Shea, maybe there’s just something about Sam Elliott, but there’s something about Shea that’s just so interesting. I guess I share in his melancholy, and the kind of sorrow, and maybe this last little bit of a journey, and just saying, listen, let’s do it the right way. And I think some of his perspective on leadership and his willingness to let go of it, I think were really, really interesting. So I’d probably be excited about those things.

I’d probably be worried about … that human life doesn’t seem to matter that much to these dudes. And depending on how it goes with us, I could very well get in some serious trouble with those dudes. So I think the way that they treat with chaos and pain is probably something worrisome.

Allison:

Yes, I agree. I think it’s interesting, too, how we — I mean, not you and I, I mean general “we” — what parts of characters’ stories we seem to gravitate towards. And what grabbed me … Let me just actually pause and say, before we started recording, I said to you, “Ren, you did not prepare me for this show.” I expected a Western, I expected what you see in the previews. However, it was full of lots of emotions.

Shea is an interesting character to me, because his journey, to me, is very deep in grief. I mean, at the beginning, he has to burn his family’s home down, due to smallpox. So that, to me, is like that never left, that stuck with me. The immense grief that he faced and faces seems to drive his initial motivations, making his character a bit more on the somber side, which you alluded to.

He often, because of that, acts very unafraid, and he is unafraid of death even. It seems to allow him to live pretty fearlessly. And I would say really, despite his personal pain, he does take on the journey of leading settlers to Oregon. And I think some of his military experience makes him comfortable in that role. But some of the things that you alluded to, I’m curious if you would elaborate. What do you mean on you getting into some trouble with them?

Ren:

Well, yeah, I think we can stay with Shea and play around with maybe the mindset of people, and as we try to navigate all of this, folks, trying to take away real lessons. The danger of someone who has nothing to lose and has really, really, really strict points of view. Now, there was a couple of instances where Shea had to do trail policing, where people in the trail were stealing from one another. His answer was, “I destroy your wagons, and I leave you here to die.”

I was like, okay. I mean, I guess it’s hard out there. You don’t want your whole wagon trail fighting each other and gobbling each other up. There was something about 1883, and they start to explore it a little bit later in 1923, there were no rules other than societal norms that people were leaving behind with every mile. They were embracing more and more of this idea of the trail and the reality of the harshness of it.

So I think that, in an effort to be like James, protect my family, what if I wronged one of these guys and I was at James or Shea or Thomas’s … the end of their pistols. So I think maybe there was some hard really, really strict reprisal from those dudes.

Allison:

Yes. The environment, thankfully, is not the environment that we are in right now; however, you raise some interesting points because he is often ruthless. I mean, ruthless. Me, personally, I have trouble watching violence. I do have trouble with it. So that’s a fair warning for …

Ren:

Oh, so I definitely should have warned you.

Allison:

Well, it’s okay. I mean, it’s all good. I just learned to watch it during the day because I often have dreams about things that I watch late at night. Regardless, anyway, I have trouble watching violence. So it’s a violent show. It is a violent show, and he is ruthless. So he eventually seems to confront his need for peace, if you will, without giving too much away. His character does really highlight, to me, navigating those personal battles.

But you are right — and you are right, rather — that extreme thinking and being completely fearless … I mean, there are a few scenes where he is at the end of somebody else’s pistol and completely fearless. He’s just completely fearless about it. He’s not afraid of death, and he has a kill-or-be-killed type of mentality.

How that translates to the workplace could be … I mean, it would be difficult to work with a leader who perceives competition, even within the organization, who perceives only one winner. That exists in an organization. That happens inside a workplace when we are all working for the same company, same mission, same direction, that internal competition, seeing external competition even could lead to some ethical dilemmas, perhaps. So it’s an interesting translation to the workplace. What do you think, Ren?

Ren:

When I think about Shea or any of these people in the workspace, I think … we talk about this too, it’s this ethos, these people driven by what they would consider integrous behavior. In 1883, you saw people who … actions of loyalty and respect and generosity and kindness were all rooted in, I think, some kind of real stark violence, life loss, life gained, because there were real risks out there. I don’t know how much of us or how many of us experienced that in the workspace.

But I do think that there are people who are so doggedly connected to their point of view of what is right. And their fearlessness is not rooted in conquering courage. I think his fearlessness was rooted in the fact that he was on his last trail, literally and figuratively. The man had given up. So it wasn’t like, look at our fearless leader. I would often see him and go, oh man, that man is desperate to find his end.

I guess in the workspace, I see maybe people who operate under the guise of these characteristics of fearlessness or courageousness, when really there is nothing but fear or sadness or, worse yet, defeat. So that’s tough to navigate. Now granted, Shea’s awesome because Sam Elliott’s awesome, and they made him a sympathetic character, but he was complex, like many of them.

Allison:

Very complex. There’s an interesting exchange between him and his friend Thomas, who’s also a fellow veteran. And what he says is … Let me pause again. There are so many one-liners in this show that, if you really listen, just really, it caused me to pause a lot and think about what people … Even if we weren’t recording this, I would’ve been like, oh, that’s intense. That’s a philosophical thing to say.

Regardless, what he says is, “When there are 2 leaders, there’s no leader,” which I thought was interesting. I thought that was something to think about. Of course, maybe in a war zone, this is more applicable than the workplace. I don’t know. I can’t reference that personally. “When there are 2 leaders, there’s no leader,” which is interesting, because in some ways that comment contradicts CCL’s research that leadership is a social process. So do you think, Ren, that quote, unquote, leadership depends on context?

Ren:

Well, absolutely it does. But I might say that we see the social process of leadership happening. And I think what Thomas was speaking to, and some of what we know, is the adage of too many chefs in the kitchen, or too many people holding a gravity of attention. I think that was in the context, Thomas was talking to Shea like, “You’ve got to get James under control. If you don’t get him on our side, he’s going to split the train because he only cares about his family, he doesn’t care about us. And he’s the most proficient one of us, so we can’t afford to lose him.”

So I think some of what leaders need to do, and if you’re tracking in your own workspaces, whether you’re leading a team or a part of a team, I think what Thomas was speaking to, is let the social process of leadership emerge, and the best leaders are the ones who can step forward and step back. So at that moment, Shea was trying to influence, I think began to influence, James to say, “We need your help. We need you.”

One of our influence tactics, this idea of involving people in their hands, their process, this idea of you’re a valuable asset, we need your help, and I can’t have you challenging me openly in front of everybody. He kind of got James on board, and then later he realized that these people no longer wanted to follow Shea, and he had to ask James to step up into the role.

So I think, yeah, leadership always matters on context, but it was almost like Thomas was speaking to the nature of emergent leadership of direction, alignment, commitment, of letting people naturally fall into their spaces. So that’s probably maybe my angle on it, was the nuance of the command-and-control singular person.

Allison:

Yes. We talked about crisis leadership sometime last year, so I won’t reiterate too much of what we already talked about. However, I do think when there’s a crisis, an organizational crisis or any crisis, it can be very helpful to have one person who is leading the charge. It can be, and again, it almost always depends on context.

Another thing that you are highlighting, and what you just said, is that I think there’s a lot of examples in the show of very clear, direct, effective communication. And that directness, again depends on context. It works for the show because there’s a lot of chaos, there’s a lot of threat. There’s constant threat. And while it was vital for those characters on the show, transparent and open communication can also help to ensure that everybody really is on the same page and working towards common goals. In the show, if they were not to be, I mean, your whole family could be killed.

Again, the risks are different; however, but translating that directly to the workplace, I think they have a lot of really good examples of that, of being clear and direct like, look, you need to talk to James. You need to get him on board with that. It’s clear, it’s direct. Again, I don’t want to overstate that their circumstances are much different than ours. But again, our research and so much research has found that that alignment and being direct at times is one outcome of effective leadership.

So I’d say, throughout the show, there are so many examples where alignment needs to happen. It needs to happen really fast because the risks are too great to not align immediately. And when you’re faced with that kind of circumstance at the workplace where you need to align quickly, that very direct communication and clear communication will help.

Ren:

It’s funny you talk about that, because I think there’s instances of clear communication, transparency. And then I definitely want to talk about what I would think is a failure of communication, which is when James asked Shea to ask Margaret if he can go on without them towards the end of the show. But we’ll get back to James and some of his nuances of his strengths and failures as a person.

Staying on Thomas just a moment longer, I thought there was a variety of things that were interesting about him. One, how he was a guide or a place of safety and friendship for Shea, but also the relationship he had with Naomi, I think her name is, the woman that he sort of took charge for, and her kids too. It’s so, also, really weird, and I’m really excited to talk about the exploration of masculinity and femininity, and the patriarchy, and a man’s role.

He, I think was willing to, not to say there was no personal benefit, but I think he was willing to sacrifice a lot or just say, “I consider these things to be right, therefore I will support it.” I think it begins to … he partners with her, I think, out of principle, and that evolves into partnership. There’s so many people who are principled in this show. I think that’s really what the show gets to explore, is whose principles are valid and why? How does that all show up when the stakes are highest?

Allison:

I am hesitating because I don’t want to jump too quickly to Elsa; however, I want to highlight an incredibly powerful quote from the show that, A, sort of gave me chills, and B, is exactly what you just mentioned. It’s like, whose principles, whose traditions, whose values, whose ethics?

Towards the end of the series, there’s an exchange between Elsa and a tribesman, and they’re in mid-conflict. Elsa says to him, “You speak English, how can you do this?” He replies to her, “You speak English, and your people do this.” Again, we don’t need to jump to Elsa too quickly, but this show is not exactly rainbows and butterflies.

That seems to be the point. It forces us to investigate everything that you just mentioned. It’s a reminder that the trail, the quote, unquote, trail leading to quote, unquote, freedom brings up curiosities about everything that you just said. It’s like, whose ethics, whose values, whose traditions, whose beliefs? Who? So it’s not necessarily just a story about the Duttons’ origin, though it also is, it’s so much bigger than that.

Ren:

Yes. Oh man, it is. I think it’s as big as Manifest Destiny, and we’re going to get, I think, that big. And, too, when I start … I think the show taps into something that for me feels really American, which is this idea of, I’ve always headed West. The “head West, young man” has always been my prerogative. Growing up in Michigan, I’ve always wanted to move West. I’ve always wanted to go West.

1923, I think, really continued to explore, and so does Yellowstone, all of the negative sides of that. The people that are harmed in the face of that, the land that is ruined in the face of that, the power struggles that ensue. But here, I think, there is a lot of this philosophy, or philosophical discussion, and something that popped up for me, as it often does, is agency.

So we talk about whose principles, whose ideas, and then we talk about agency, do I have choice? When I think about Margaret, the matriarch of the family, and then her sister, they have a really interesting conversation early on where her sister’s like this always griping, didn’t ever want to come. She wanted to stay in Tennessee, but her husband died. She’s got a daughter.

And they had this run-in where Margaret looks at her and is like, “Chill out, man. You just didn’t have to come.” She goes, “What do you mean, I didn’t have to come? I’m a woman in 1883, my husband just died. The only family I have is leading West. I don’t have any rights. What choice did I have?”

Now luckily her arc … I don’t know luckily, I think they end her arc very quickly and I’m like, holy crap. That was one of the first instances of how fast the story moves. But it’s interesting, they have a discussion about choice, and then Margaret is at the behest of James’s decision to … we are going, and that’s it. Now, Margaret does exercise some agency later, but what are your reactions?

Allison:

Again, it’s the circumstances that they’re in. We’ve talked about this before. She very well may have had agency, again, air quoting agency here, but what would the consequence be of not going? A lot of times the men in the show will try to dictate, and a lot of times they’re effective at doing so, dictate what is happening and when it’s happening. And a lot of times it occurs under threat, and even their way of dictating it is threatening as well. And they’re very literally faced with potential murder.

So it’s tricky. It’s very tricky. I think one thing about Margaret … so about agency, did she have agency? Sometimes. What are the consequences of her choices if she were to choose otherwise? I don’t know, Ren, I don’t think … Let’s just play make believe for a minute. If she were to say, “No, I’m not going,” I think she would have been dragged. I don’t think the family would’ve let her.

Ren:

Well, are we talking about the sister, or are we talking about Margaret, Faith Hill’s character, the mom?

Allison:

Both. Either. Both.

Ren:

Both. Yeah. No, they would’ve left that sister behind. I mean …

Allison:

Do you think so? You think so?

Ren:

Yeah. They left her behind by the river.

Allison:

True. That’s true.

Ren:

I mean, they were saying … Granted, she decided to stay and then stayed permanently. I think maybe if we look at that from Margaret’s lens, the wife of this family, 2 kids, one barely a teenager. Though it’s funny when I think about Elsa, she’s legitimately having a midlife crisis. None of these people were living past like 32. She was experiencing in the most glorious way with the hardest H’s. I’m going to come back to that, I promise.

What I think about Margaret, I think part of what they’re exploring, and her tension with Elsa about what’s expected of her as a woman, or why so many of these women are wearing dresses the entire times and little petticoats. Then Elsa gets jeans, and it’s all like, what the hell are you doing wearing pants? I mean, that’s the environment they’re in. So yeah, agency I think is contextual.

I’d say Margaret, I think she had enough gravity to pull certain levers, like these are my kids, she was a proficient horsewoman, a great shot. She was capable, and that gave her a lot of leverage. I don’t know if it was Faith Hill, or just that character, but Margaret became a background, I think. The only agency I think that she exercised was making it clear that she would not leave her family on some unmarked grave on the trail. And because of that, James said, “Well, whatever happens to our family, where that happens, that’s where we stay.” But then, I guess, James had to agree.

So when I think about Margaret, and I think as we move towards James and Elsa, we really start to explore this idea of whose rules are right, what is right for me, and then does it matter in the system I live in? Margaret would tell Elsa a lot, you can ride all these horses all you want, girl, but when we get there, the East will come with us. And so with it, with its rules; and so with it, with its expectations; and so with it, with the expectations of you that you be a girl in 1883.

Allison:

Yes. Margaret’s interesting to me, too, because at the beginning they have her portrayed, and she remains this, but she at the beginning is portrayed as only a dedicated mother and wife first. That is the priority. That is her character at the beginning. She does stay that way, but she eventually begins to take more of a leadership role. She does clash with Elsa here and there.

And Elsa has a different take about being quote, unquote, ladylike, which you’ve alluded to. At one point Margaret says to her, “Put on a dress, that’s what the world will demand of you, and that’s what the world wants from you.” Which to me, in very different ways, that mentality, while it might not be that overt, still exists here and there.

Back to Elsa and Margaret for just a moment. Elsa, time and time again, defies her parents. Margaret can often be rather direct and upfront with Elsa about the perils of life. This is just a reality. This is how it is.

One really interesting and, again, almost philosophical quote that I pulled from Margaret that I’d love your thoughts on — this is also another one that sat with me — was she says to Elsa, “The more people you cram together, the more rules there will be. I don’t know what life is like in Oregon, but there will be rules there too.” That one stuck with me, and I will pause on my thoughts. Curious what you think about that.

Ren:

Yeah, I love it. It reminds me of the quote, “Anywhere you go, there you are.” Which is to say you can’t run away from yourself. Your problems exist. I think Margaret was feeling this sorrow, I think. Seeing Elsa, and seeing her spirit bloom. Seeing this girl really see herself, and find herself, and find love and heartbreak, and then love again, and loss. It’s just such this interesting experience.

Oddly enough, she ends up wearing a dress, though in that very quote, when she’s talking to that one guy, “You speak English.” That’s sort of the end of, towards the end of her arc. I think the idea that Margaret starts to explore, or that is really the center of the story, is what are we doing any of this for? What is freedom?

James is trying to find a new land, a new piece of space for his family. And Margaret is keenly aware that so are a whole bunch of other people, and sooner or later that wild freedom will go away, and we’ll fall back into the expectations of the world.

And so, too, I think, as we all navigate our own peace and presence in the workspace or outside of it, it’s being really clear on the expectations of you. And then … I don’t know, man, I was so desperate. I want to find my prairie. I know I got space out there like Elsa, I want to be free, too, girl. So I don’t know. What do you think about what she said?

Allison:

I think there are some translations to the workplace that … a lot of them, probably. One that comes to mind is, I was talking to a client recently who is new to the organization that she’s in now. She quit her prior job. And one of the things that she alluded to was that I left my previous employer because of certain rules, because of certain ways of acting. What she’s finding now is that the rules and those behaviors also exist in her current organization. They’re just coded a little bit differently.

So again, not to be doom and gloom but realistic as well, that systems … the workplace is a system, and there are inherently going to be rules and norms that challenge you in every workplace that you go to. There’s no perfect workplace, and because of its systemic nature, I don’t know if you can ever get exactly what you want out of work. I’m not sure. And people change frequently, too. So that’s part of it. So that was the one thing.

And that also got me thinking about, with regard to the show, some of the things you just mentioned. I’m looking for freedom. I’m looking for my land. I’m looking for a better life, and so are a lot of other people. And at what cost? How many resources do we have? And will the resources expire? What happens if more people follow in our footsteps? There are not endless resources.

And so, thinking more strategically about, down the line, what this could look like for the family, or for the workplace, if you will, is an important leadership quality, because no workplace has endless resources. And in 1883, of course, land does not have endless … it just doesn’t. You don’t have endless resources. And then the more people that gather, the more resources you use, et cetera, et cetera.

Ren:

Well, and that sort of is the story of 1923, the real resource battle once the West is conquered. And I think that continues to be the story of Yellowstone. And here, I think the resources are our humanity. Like 1883, what’s left of what we want to create? What’s going to be left at the end of the journey?

I think that’s a really interesting exploration of who are we going to be when we make it. I think they ask each other that a lot. They make hard decisions about human lives. It’s kind of like, when we get there, are we going to be monsters? Will we have no humanity left? For some of us, like Elsa, they just want to stay. I don’t want this journey to end. I found my stopping point.

So I think it’s, when we get to start to explore all of those rules or all of those systems or all of those expectations, I think making a plan, getting clear on what your plan is, and then getting ready for the shift and the changes coming your way. I think people’s inability to change their perspectives, in this show, led to their doom. Anyone who was able to flex, oh my God, I guess there was only 5 people who made it, spoiler alert, they were able to flex and then kind of make it to the end.

Allison:

Kind of is, yes, underlying, we’re kind of making it to the end. And again, at what cost? Again, I know their circumstances were different, and I’m mindful that we are 30 minutes in now, so I don’t want to get too deep into the conversation about colonization and all of that. There’s a deeper story, there’s a much bigger story here that viewers are, if they choose to, forced to investigate.

One of the things that Elsa also says that stuck with me, and I’ll directly quote her here, is, “I knew nothing of the horror that hides in freedom’s shadow. Freedom, to most, is an idea. It’s an abstract thought that pertains to control. That is not freedom, that’s independence.” Which, that will forever stick with me, I think, for a lot of reasons. There’s a lot to say about Elsa, but I’ll pause there. I’m curious to hear your reactions on that quote from her.

Ren:

I think it is … Elsa, as they wrote her, and as I alluded to, kind of our expositional guide, a glimpse into the narrator’s experience, or really the author’s experience … I think there’s something around this idea of the tension between what we’re seeking and what it costs. I think you keep on, I think appropriately, highlighting that. As it relates to the cost that people are faced with what happened to Native Americans, 1923 gives you that full bore. So you’re warned, Allison, a very fun show too. Different.

Allison:

Did you say fun? Did you say fun?

Ren:

1923, I think it’s a fun … I think both of these shows are fun. I think they’re all fun. Fun in the most wild, kind of, like, strange way. In 1923 they really, really force you to explore it.

Maybe we can move to James here, because at James, at one point, says to a Native person, towards the end of the show, when they’re talking about where they can settle … and the guy points him over this ridge, and he’s like, “You can go over there. The winters can be tough, but the land’s really beautiful.” He said, “Just keep me in mind, me and my people.” Then James puts his hand on his heart and he’s like, “As long as the Duttons are there, you and yours will always be able to hunt and fish there.”

Then, if any of you watch Yellowstone, you realize that actually the Yellowstone land really becomes … nobody’s allowed on it, and grows and grows and grows in its size. So that’s maybe, I think, the embodiment of the freedom quote there, that in the shadow of freedom … like, look at all this land that we can be provided for our freedom, but it’s the Duttons’ land. It’s private land, you can’t have it. It’s our land. That’s such a weird, I think, tension, maybe. That’s some of the thing … That’s in the shadow of freedom, is that freedom comes at someone else’s expense.

Allison:

Right. In the similar vein that you touched on earlier about agency, I can’t help but get stuck on freedom now, and what does freedom mean, and the Duttons, do they have freedom?

Ren:

No, no. They’re utterly bound by their ethos. James is a trauma ball. He’s a war veteran, who’s broken and wounded, who was a prisoner of war, spent years in prison, and then was a product of Manifest Destiny. It’s like the product of the action of it. Hey, you there, go manifest your destiny.

And then all the women in the shows I think were products or — I can’t wait, we’re going to get to Elsa right now — but all the women in the show, I think, were products of their environment. No real agency, having to do what the system, it mandated. As we watch the arc of all of the Yellowstone and the Duttons, you realize that they are slaves to the land.

Now Jacob, in 1923, says, “No, our job is to shepherd. The land is the only thing that matters. Our family and the land. That’s it.” And there’s a fun conversation that Jacob has with his nephew, and they’re comparing like, “Aren’t we doing the same thing?” His nephew says to him, “Aren’t we doing the same thing the villain’s doing?” Then Jacob, Harrison Ford’s character, says, “Yeah, but my reasons matter to me more.”

I’m like, holy crap, that’s it. That’s all it is. Are these people free? No, they’re just bound by what they would consider righteous. That’s where I think Elsa shines, is she gives us a chance to explore, all of us, our own battle with the people around us and their righteous expectations.

Allison:

Yes. And I have not watched 1923 yet. So I look forward to that … with a question mark?

Ren:

It’s good. It’s good. It’s good.

Allison:

What you just mentioned, and I’m going to paraphrase what you said, what matters most is, I think you said, is me and my land or something like that. Is that what you said?

Ren:

Yeah. It’s like, the family and the land. They were just having a conversation. Like, that’s what we’re holding it down for.

Allison:

I think that is a perspective that we see is pervasive, even now, that can cause a lot of obstacles. Again, it’s deeply embedded within the system of work, too. The culture, at least in the United States, individualistic culture, that’s not going to change overnight. It drives a lot of decisions that can benefit individuals or individual families, but again, at the expense of others in sometimes very dramatic and finite ways.

The last thing I want to say about James before we move to Elsa … I can’t wait to talk about Elsa … The last thing I’ll say about James is that he was driven primarily, his motivation is to secure a quote, unquote, better future. Which I think that is, even in our day and age, a lot of people’s drive. It’s really his determination to give his family a better life.

But I would say, if you watch the show, one thing about James is that his strategic thinking is an asset. So if we just could isolate that for James for a minute, there’s of course a lot of flaws. The story itself, his story is traumatic, it’s very sad in a lot of ways. However, his strategic thinking is certainly an asset that helps move the family forward.

So that’s something, I think, a positive. I was trying to come up with some positives, too, that we could consider from a show that’s kind of sad and violent. And that’s one takeaway from James that I would underline, is that he’s incredibly strategic.

Ren:

Yeah. I think James goes through an arc, because he starts with only caring about his. At one point, when he does take on the leadership role of the wagon train, he starts to share his wisdom. I like him, too, because what I like about James is his self-reliance, and he’s taught his family that. And then, at his best, he teaches other people that. That’s a personal dream of mine. I want to help people help themselves.

So I think there’s a lot of shiny parts about James and his character, even though I think anyone who … “I’m doing this for you, I’m doing this for our family and a better life.” … I’m like, I don’t know, man. Every Dutton man is running from something. That is a trend of all of the storylines, all the Dutton dudes, even … or all of the ones we follow … Spencer in 1923, as you’ll learn, Allison, he’s running from something. When we get into the Yellowstone conversation, a lot of those guys are running from something.

I think James, he would use the polarity, he would use multiple truths to cloak his actions. I think one of them is, I love my family. I’m here for them. Yeah, and you’re doing this for yourself. You’re trying to escape something. You’re trying to do something that’s different than staying in Tennessee in the shadow of the Civil War.

It’s always interesting to navigate the complexities of these people, and they’re humans, and I think Elsa is a big, bright light that shows us these dark crevices of James. And we go, oh, this guy’s, yeah, he’s got some good, yeah, he’s got some dark, and I think Elsa maybe is the best version of him.

Allison:

Yeah, I could see that. Elsa’s interesting, too, because I would say her narrative is one of growth and resilience, a lot of curiosity and identity. In some ways we’re lucky, because she’s initially portrayed as naive and young, and she is younger, so we see her not dramatically age, but her coming of age, if you will.

And she is eventually faced with some harsh realities, like the rest of them, that cause her to question what she knows, what she believes, what her family’s taught her, and what her reality is, and what she sees. What’s interesting about what you just said ,about every Dutton man is running from something, do you think they all are?

Ren:

I think there’s a through line for the characters. You look at James, yes, he’s running from something; you look at Spencer, yes, he’s running from something. I think you look up, and you think about all of the guys in, whether it’s John or Rip or even Jamie, they’re all running from something. Whether they’re running from their histories or their past or their future. So I think that’s a trend. Maybe the counter is that Elsa gets to run to something. What’s the root of your question? Do you …

Allison:

Oh, just curious, genuine curiosity.

Ren:

No, I just think it’s a through line on some of the major men.

Allison:

Yeah, well say more about what you just alluded to about Elsa running to something.

Ren:

Well, what I think Elsa gets to be a little bit herself and a little bit our lens, our perspective on the world. Then she gets to be Taylor, the artist or the author and the director and the writer and producer. She gets to be all of these characters.

In her myriad reflection, I think she starts to highlight like, oh, I’m seeing this ocean of wheat and this mass freedom, and I’m getting further and further away of the expectations of me. As I’m doing so, my parents are letting me do more and more of myself. I’m getting to ride horses the way my dad taught me. I’m getting to play with the boys, I’m getting to hang out with the men. I’m getting to do good horse work. I’m relied on. She starts to, I think, be aware of her environment and places that she wants to pursue.

Allison:

Yeah, what stood out to me with Elsa, too, is … she challenges norms frequently, and she questions things, and in a way that a lot of teenagers might. Like teenagers, that’s sort of common. What is interesting to me about Elsa is that her interactions with different cultures, if you will, play a significant role in her own development. And you get to see her world’s view evolve.

In a small way it reminds me of vertical development, which I want to talk about in a moment because you’ve talked about holding your own perspectives too tightly. What also is interesting to me about Elsa is that the interwebs, if you will, if you ask people, people are very torn about Elsa, because some people will say her character is overrated. Some people will say she’s the most important character in the show. Some people will say she’s annoying.

The people who say she’s annoying, though … again, I’m talking about what I see on Twitter and some actual editorial articles. Some well-known — I’m not looking for us to get sued, so I won’t name them — articles and authors say that her character is annoying and allude to her behaving as a woman should behave. Which I thought was very interesting, given that it is 2024.

Ren:

Wait. People thought she was annoying because she wasn’t behaving the way a woman should behave?

Allison:

Right. She should just go along with the family. She’s causing chaos, she’s causing disruption amongst the family, and she should listen to her father. She should listen to her elders. She’s causing too much chaos. She’s putting the family at risk.

Ren:

Yeah, I don’t know. I think she does … At her father’s behest, she’s one of the cowboys. She’s one of the cowboys because she’s the most proficient horse rider in the group.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

So I don’t know. It’d be fun to probe those ideas. I mean, I found her at sometimes goofily charming, I’ve alluded to it. Her voice coach and those hard H’s, I’ve never heard an actor lean into the “hwhat,” the “hwas.”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Her soliloquies are these beautiful, passionate poems about the future. She’s like, “hwhen the sun rises, I don’t know hwhy.”

Allison:

Well, isn’t she English too?

Ren:

“I’d ever imagine doing something else or where else.” I think that part is super funny. It maybe takes a little bit away of, I think, her passionate point of view. I don’t think I’ve seen Isabel May in much.

Allison:

I think she’s English, so her ability to harness that accent is pretty incredible as well.

Ren:

She sounded like Foghorn Leghorn sometimes.

Allison:

Oh my gosh. I loved it.

Ren:

I was like, yo, who told you to do that? But what I do think was interesting about her is … thinking about maybe sticking on this idea, doing what a woman should, and that’s why I loved her. You talked about her interaction with other cultures, and I think she gets to meet Sam, who, I can’t remember what tribe he’s part of, but they fall in love. God, what language are they speaking? I remember she speaks that language to a Comanche later and he’s like, “How do you know that?”

I think there are all these other views of what women look like and what they need to look like. Part of her connection with Sam, he calls her lightning with the yellow hair, is they go on a buffalo hunt together, and she kills a buffalo, and she eats the heart, and she rolls back into camp, blood on her face. She’s sitting super high in the saddle, letting the people stare at her, and she doesn’t care. That’s like, you’re clearly not doing what a woman should.

Then you think about Sam and his culture, and he’s like, “No, these are my people. This is what we do. You’re a hunter, you hunt. It doesn’t matter if you’re a man or a woman in this instance.” There’s so many reminders of, people have different points of view of how the world should go, and those who hold on too tightly to that point of view didn’t seem to make it that long.

Allison:

Right. Yeah, absolutely. I alluded to vertical development before. So translating this to the workplace … and I love the image of Elsa very literally taking a bite out of a heart with blood all over her face, which is absolutely not what was expected of women at that time.

And when we talk about vertical development at the workplace, I’m certainly not suggesting that you should do what Elsa did literally. However, vertical development … if we consider horizontal development is what you’ll find in a lot of leadership development programs, it’s important: learning skill sets, adding some knowledge to your repertoire, learning how to ride a horse might be a translation. Adding those skill sets — very, very important.

The vertical development perspective is expanding your perspective, expanding your mindset so that you can think in more complex and strategic ways, in systemic ways. One of the ways that you do that is by seeking perspectives of people who are vastly different than what you know and what you believe, and having the ability to hold many, many truths together at the same time. I think there are a lot of examples of Elsa doing just that. Sometimes to her demise, again, because of some of the obstacles that they face, that you and I are not facing.

When it comes to the workplace, that vertical development, that expansion of mindset, we found time and time again in our research — and again, we’re not the only research organization that has found this — is absolutely crucial to your sustainability as a leader, and probably to your organization’s sustainability as well. So I’m curious what your take is, Ren.

Ren:

Yeah, I’m thinking about the willingness to grow. If you fight against that growth, maybe you maintain a container, but that container starts to crack, or gets blemishes, or I think it maybe stands in the way. I think what we saw from Elsa was her … I think she already had it as James’s child. I think they alluded to it.

In Tennessee, they were teaching her to do a lot of these things. It’s like almost equipping her with the ability to let her stretch and to give her new skills and have those stretch opportunities. Then furthermore continue to let her do those things because they had to rely on her.

It’d be interesting, a counteract, or her cousin who is lost very early in the show, would she have done the same kind of stuff? Would she have unfurled herself from her expectations in past for a pursuit of something more? Now when I think about VMI, or I think about vertical mindset, I think Elsa, too, was doing the thing that we do, where we expand to our newest border, and then that’s our life. For Elsa, I think she started to say, “Oh, now this is my life.” I think you can see it in her 2 loves that she has.

She falls in love with Ennis, and that’s it. That’s it. That’s the guy. Then it’s not, and then she mourns. And then Sam’s the guy. Not to diminish either one of her experiences, but it’s like these new borders. And then she says, “Oh, this is what the world looks like now.” Then there’s this new instance, and then she goes, “Oh, this is what the world looks like now.” I think that’s always been her experience. Even when she recognized that freedom has a shadow, then that becomes her heuristic.

I think part of what we see is she continues to march up through these borders and then expand them. She could have very easily just been locked in, because I actually think she did get locked in the idea, like, her life was the prairie now. There was no other option. I’ll walk you guys to the coast, then I’m going to turn around and come home. And even that, I’m like, is that still a growth mindset? I wonder.

Allison:

Yeah, I mean, that’s an interesting question. I think it is, because if we put ourselves in the position (or try to) of living in that time, there’s only so much information that you can find that is available to you. Now it’s a bit different. We have so much more access to information and education and connection with other people at the workplace who are much … Even within our own workplace, who are much different than us.

There are different subcultures within organizations. There’s an overarching culture, then there’s subcultures within teams. I think, given the context that she’s in, I would still consider it to be a growth mindset.

For those of you who are new to this type of conversation, what Ren’s alluding to is growth and fixed mindset. Excuse me. Fixed mindset is exactly what it sounds like. I’m fixed on my perspective, I’m fixed on the circumstances that I’m in. This is simplified, but growth mindset is the ability to think outside of those barriers and walls and allow ourselves to take on new perspectives, new learning, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So again, given the circumstances that she’s in and that the family is in, I would say so, yes.  And if we translate that to the workplace … that’s an interesting conversation. Of course, now  — we always do this. Now we’re getting to some of the things that I could talk about for another hour or so, but … Growth mindset. What does that look like at the workplace now? And how are you … Ren, how are you, or how would you coach someone to nourish a growth mindset now?

Ren:

I think it comes full circle to where we started, which is that everyone, I think, was so — and another way you can think about “fixed” — was so fixed on what they wanted. I don’t know if there was a lot of wavering. I think Elsa had always been fixed on her idea of freedom. Now it shifted, but I think she’d always been locked into that.

I think James, for whatever reason, always locked into that. Margaret, for whatever reason, locked into her family. Shea, for whatever reason, locked into his commitment that this is my last trip, period, end of story. He said, “I’m following through with that.” I think all of these people … maybe … it’s interesting, I think about Thomas and Joseph, 2 of the only people who actually make it to Oregon, spoiler alert. They moved from there.

Even though Thomas, maybe, he didn’t move from his ethos. He was doing what he thought was right. I mean, Joseph was committed to making it, despite whatever little pit of his life was left. So I think the way that I would encourage someone to cultivate a growth mindset is continuing to explore all of the truths of your beliefs. The ups and the downs, recognizing that you are not only a hero, and you’re certainly not only a victim. And frankly, when you’re talking to people, they are the heroes and victims of their own stories.

And so, I think cultivating perspective is the key to cultivating a growth mindset. I think that was what this story provided us. This was an American tale. Now, there was a lot of early conversations around what freedom looks like, the balance between men and women, and then what perspective can we harness? And I think it’s the beginning of showing how perspective is hard to keep, because for the Duttons the perspective is Yellowstone.

Allison:

Yeah, that’s well said. Well, I know we are probably coming to the end here shortly. Is there anything else you want to say about Elsa before we start to wrap? I know to me at least, she was a … They’re all great characters, but her character arc to me was very, very intriguing. I think we spent a little bit of time on her, but is there anything else you want to say?

Ren:

I just thought that the way Taylor’s willing to kill his darlings is great.

Allison:

It’s great.

Ren:

Yeah. I mean, because there’s real stakes in this show, there’s real loss. That’s interesting.

Allison:

It is interesting. I’ll just … If you haven’t watched the show, the ending surprised me. I don’t want to give it too much away, Ren, but I thought it was going to go one way. She gets injured, I’ll just leave it at that. I thought it was going one way and it went the other way. You’re right, it is an interesting and accurate depiction of not every story has a happy ending, especially in that time. And it’s okay to acknowledge that, I think. So that’s the last thing I’ll say about Elsa.

As we start to round out this episode, I’ll leave our listeners with a thought about vertical development. I know we very loosely mentioned it, but what our research has found is that, in order to grow vertically, not just horizontally, there are 3 primary conditions that would support that. One is a heat experience, which certainly is a common occurrence in 1883. Heat experiences are …

Ren:

There’s a lot of opportunities.

Allison:

It’s basically all heat. Opportunities to challenge yourself to learn new skills, to stretch. I’m going to go out of order here. The second one is elevated sense-making. So taking time to reflect, taking time to make sense of your environment, make sense of things that you’re learning, make sense of your workplace. The last one that, Ren, you and I have mentioned several times is called colliding perspectives. That is putting yourself in positions with people who have vastly different perspectives than you.

I would say that many well-intentioned organizations, and many well-intentioned development opportunities, will fail because they don’t deliver those lasting results, and they only hit on maybe one of those conditions. A lot of times we put people in heat experiences, but in order to grow vertically, you need all of those things.

I do think the one that people avoid the most is colliding perspectives, because it challenges us to think about our existing mental models, if you will. It challenges our worldviews. It challenges our opinions. It challenges what we know and what we believe. And that is hard.

However, in order to grow in that vertical way, it’s really important to put yourself into those experiences. So if you are a leader who is listening, perhaps in this next week, today’s Friday, so maybe next week you can sit down and have a coffee or a lunch with somebody who you know has vastly different perspectives from you. Get curious, see what you can learn. Ren, what’s the takeaway you want our listeners to leave with today?

Ren:

Gosh … dresses are hard to wear when riding horses apparently, especially when you’re in cowboy work.

Allison:

Put pockets in women’s dresses, please.

Ren:

Let me see. I think that, and because of the season in my life and as you’re all tracking, I think I come back to the same things around this idea of just what does acceptance and perspective look like, and harnessing both at the same time. In this work environment, or if we were to look at the trail as … let’s just say you’re in an industry or on a team experiencing massive change, taking a long journey, a long, treacherous journey.

Being aware that maybe all of what you had in the past may not serve you in the future. Also, recognizing that some of the skills you harnessed from your past can help you in your future. And then maybe, I think, Allison, sort of like where you headed, with this idea of growth and this idea of changing the way you experience the world. Oh, man. We should talk about the debate that my family and I watched last night. Yes.

Allison:

No. It was painful.

Ren:

Yes, we should, we’re going to have to do an episode about it. I was just talking to my daughter, she’s 19, and just this idea of trying to maintain perspective and push past your own views of what is or is not right. Because the more we fight over our own little plot of land or plot of ideas, the less work we get done together.

So as you’re moving along your treacherous journey in these faces with your colleagues or your friends or your family, be willing to let go of the past. Really be intentional about what you hold onto, and then be willing to flex. I think maybe that’s what we see if Yellowstone exists, because James was willing to flex on his location, because Margaret was willing to flex on letting James do that, take her, Elsa away from her. I guess all these people were willing to flex, and that was sort of the foundation. So flex.

Allison:

So flex, great. Expand your perspective. Seek people who have different perspectives than you. I almost hear you saying adaptability too, like flex and be adaptable.

Ren:

Yeah, they had to do that.

Allison:

Yes, which we also have to do right now. I mean, we have to do it at work all of the time, but especially in rapidly changing organizations. It’s a great takeaway. So thanks for the conversation, Ren. I will come back to you when I watch the next prequel.

Ren:

Yeah, we’re going to have to do it.

Allison:

I’m sure we’ll have a lot to talk about. To our listeners, thanks for being here. Find us on LinkedIn, let us know what you want us to talk about next. Let us know what you think of 1883. If you’ve watched, who would you want to work for in that show? To our CCL team who helps to make this podcast happen, thank you. We appreciate you.

Back to our listeners. You can find all of our show notes and our episodes on ccl.org. We will look forward to tuning in with you next time. Thanks, everyone. Thanks, Ren.

Ren:

Thanks, Allison. Thanks, everybody. See you next time. Find Allison on the trail at TikTok.