Lead With That: Navigating Tough Conversations

Interview Transcript

Intro:

And welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk our current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Today, we’re diving into one of the most challenging yet crucial responsibilities a manager and leader holds: creating space for tough conversations. Or rather, conversations that are hard to have.

Managing a team, leading people, isn’t just about setting goals and tracking progress or ensuring projects stay on track, it’s also about fostering an environment where honest and sometimes uncomfortable discussions can take place. Whether it’s addressing performance issues, giving and receiving feedback, or tackling sensitive topics, these conversations often shape the team’s culture, trust, and resilience, and shape the landscape of the organizations we work in.

In this episode, we’ll talk about why creating a safe space for these difficult dialogues is so important; how a manager and leader can build trust to encourage openness; some practical strategies, maybe, to lead with empathy, courage, some clarity. And if you’re a manager or a leader listening out there, or just someone looking to make your team communication better, this might just be for you. So let’s dive in and learn how to lead with some openness and strength.

Ren:

Welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, we were talking about this earlier, but what do you think? What is the manager’s role to be like, “Hey, things are happening, how you feeling, everybody? Tell me.” I was like, “Let’s maybe just start there.” Is it your boss’s job to do that for you?

Allison:

That is such a hard question to answer, and I will give the CCL answer, and then I won’t leave us there. But we say a lot in the classroom that it depends, and it really does. It really, really does.

I do think it’s a manager’s responsibility, regardless of what they perceive the elephant in the room to be, to … I’m questioning myself even as I speak, so humor me. I do think it can be a manager’s responsibility, if there is a certain tone of a group, to address that. So I’ll start there. And again, that even becomes a little gray as I say it. What do you think?

Ren:

Yeah, is it a manager’s responsibility? What I think is that these questions are being asked, and that may not mean anything, but I was just having this discussion with a client. And I’m actually trying to find the email because she said something really interesting in response to some of the ideas that I offered for her about how she might help manage some of the space. And we might talk about some of them today, but it was interesting.

One of the things that I said was recognize that events happen, and this particular event happened, and she said, “Yeah, recognizing the event, though, is the hard part.” And so I think I’d say, yeah, it depends. And I guess it comes down to what are the ground rules that we’ve set for our kind of communication, and then do we have any flexibility and space for it?

And so I’ll answer, again, where I started. These questions are being asked, people are experiencing it. I mean, when we talk about stuff like big, major events, especially sometimes when the big, major events … half the United States is happy and the other half is not happy, and maybe that’s not exactly what happened this time around, but I think people are still coming to work, having stayed up late, figuring out whether they were going to be happy or not.

And so, if it’s not my manager’s job, my manager better be prepared that I’m going to have a different experience of work. Regardless of how the outcome went for me, my day is going to look a certain way.

Allison:

Yeah. And you raise a couple of interesting things I want to dig into. And first I’ll say this, that I was also discussing with a client. This was … What’s today’s date? Today’s November 8th that we’re recording. And so this conversation that I’m going to reference with a client was months ago. It might’ve been late spring. And they said to me, “Conversations that used to happen outside of work are now coming to work.”

And so that is a major difference. So if we want to be looking at this as objectively as possible, there are conversations that might be perceived as deeply personal that are now coming into the workplace, whereas I suppose they didn’t always. And so what is a manager’s responsibility?

Ren:

Yeah, before you go on, real quick, it’s different from when? Was there a point when this wasn’t happening? I’m just curious.

Allison:

I mean, I think so. Probably. Think about the first salaried job you ever had. Mine … Or not, even. Or not. Think about the first job you had that was even hourly. It doesn’t matter, right? Where you were going to work. And I think about mine. I mean, I was quite young, and I just showed up and sold books like, “How was your day,” kind of thing.

Even if I fast-forward, I was quite young, so let’s get into more adulthood, where I’m trying not to name certain events because I don’t want to go there just yet. But there were not monumental events that were impacting people’s livelihood, I think, in the way that they are now. I think it’s just different. So to put a marker on it, it’s a little hard. But I think a lot of folks are being impacted by life events, global events that are occurring, in a different way. I sound like I’m 95, but in a different way than they used to.

Ren:

Well, this is weird, I don’t know why this popped up, like the Iran–Contra affair, or things that happened like that, or these hostage events where Jimmy Carter’s got to talk down these bad guys … I think that was impacting people when that was happening. And maybe things are impacting us more and more because of the internet, or social, or the computers we have in our hands all the time.

But I don’t know if we have to debate that. I wonder, when I hear it’s different now, and I often ponder, is it different? Or … And I wonder if this is a truth, and maybe around our tough conversations, or are we less skilled than ever in having these conversations in a way where we can work next to someone that we disagree with? Because we live next to people that we disagree with all the time. Sometimes the secret is we don’t talk about our disagreements.

Now, I know that doesn’t work for all of the unjust things that happen in our cultures, in our societies. It’s not a blanket statement for everything. But I think as we start to talk about tough conversations, maybe we build better muscles to engage each other, but —

Allison:

Sure. Yeah.

Ren:

Anyway, please continue the story, or wrap it up. It sounds like people are bringing this stuff into work more than they ever have.

Allison:

And to talk about something you just said, I don’t even think it’s limited to things we disagree upon. I think we can openly talk about the hurricane that recently hit and impacted parts of North Carolina that were unexpected. You and I don’t have to … That’s not up for debate, that’s actually happened.

So I think there are a lot more events that are happening, back-to-back-to-back. And I think you’re probably right. Maybe we are less skilled at having the … I think it’s complicated. We’re probably less skilled. Maybe we were never skilled at it. I have no idea. But I do think it’s not limited to what you said. It’s inclusive of that, but not limited to it.

And I also think another point you made, which is we’re inundated. I could log on to social media, or not even. I get alerts on my phone that I’m like, “Why did I … I didn’t sign up for that.” Right? It’s never good, and they’re never good. I don’t even know how to turn them off. So I think we’re just inundated now with harder things than perhaps we used to be.

Ren:

So it’s like the presence of the ever-present bad news, then that coupled with the nature of our humanity, this “I really want what I want and I want it now.” “I don’t want to be bothered.” We are creatures of convenience. I think that’s a living thing. We take paths of least resistance. Any living organism does that.

And I think it’s interesting that we start to ingrain these things and then maybe start to habitualize this. And then what we get inundated with also, then, tend to be like what is in our echo chamber. And maybe as we build skills to navigate that, that might be an interesting piece of ground to go through. But when I said echo chamber, you were ebbing and flowing or nodding your head back and forth.

Do you agree, disagree? Does that make you think something? What was going on for you there?

Allison:

I’m not sure yet. And I’m not trying to evade your question. I’m really not. I actually want to come back to something you said a few minutes ago.

Ren:

Sure.

Allison:

Which was around ground rules. So can you just say a little bit more about that?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

And what they are, why it’s helpful, how a leader might do it.

Ren:

Yeah. I mean, I guess we started with this idea of, hey, is it a manager’s job to be like, “All right, we’re in a team meeting. It’s the day after a huge event in the United States. As an American, we even give you time to vote.” I said that word, everybody. Oh, no. And then we’re sitting in a room and things happen. Some of us are happy, some of us not, some of us don’t care. And the manager’s looking around and he’s like, “I don’t know, should I talk about this?”

And I guess that question there is, do we have ground rules as an organization that when things like this happen, do we pretend like it didn’t happen? Do we look at the office door and say, “Okay, I’m going to leave this part of my humanity at the front door, and then when I get in here it’s all going to be spreadsheets and numbers.”

So I guess some of the ground rules might be like, as an organization, have you ever had a conversation around when tough things happen? Like you said, too, what happens if half of your organization loses their home to the hurricane or something like that, some kind of horrific or terrible event happens. Do we pretend like it doesn’t for people? So whatever the event is, if something big happens, do we have the ground rule that’s set to say, “Hey, either we will give you space to talk about it, or we’ll talk about how we’ll talk about it, or we’ll take everything piece by piece.” So are there some kind of basic standard operating procedures about when something big in the world happens, are we the kind of organization that lets people talk about it? Or are we the kind of organization that says, “Nope, we don’t care. Talk off the clock.”

Does that make sense?

Allison:

Yeah, it makes sense. And I asked you to elaborate because that language, I think, might be new to some of our listeners. Of course, it’s not new to you and I, we probably do it in the classroom every single time. And I, as we’re talking, want to make sure and as we will, I know, but we’re giving some really practical tools. And I would say that is one of them, not to harp on it too long, but that is one of them: that you don’t need to set norms and ground rules after an event, but you can. You can do it anytime. You can do it anytime.

How do we want to behave as a team? And you can start there. And if you are the manager, you might have to get people going. You might have to start that list off so they even know what you mean. But one thing that we say at CCL a lot is … Well, 2 things I’ll mention. One is assume positive intent. And the other is take space, make space. So I think those are 2 practical things that you could add to your list to initiate. If you are going to have, if you do think you are the kind of leader and you are the kind of organization that will welcome these difficult conversations that Ren is talking about or that we are talking about, that’s a really great place to start to have effective conversations.

Ren:

Well, and I think something that you said there, a tool that people might want to learn more about, is one of my favorite learning agreements, I often call it when we’re working with groups or leaders is the take space, make space.

And so, in service of informing people of some of our lexicon, what would it look like for someone to take space and then make space in the confines of what we’re talking about today?

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

So what does it mean, first of all, and then how would one do it in these circumstances?

Allison:

Just clarifying, how would one follow that normal take space, make space?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Okay, got it.

Ren:

Yeah. What is it? And then how would one follow the norm?

Allison:

I think at a very basic level … well, first it means understanding yourself.

I can only give myself as a good example. I’m an extrovert and I verbally process, and on calls, I’m not shy to speak up. I will speak up. I prefer to process verbally with people. I also am aware of how much I contribute, and how much that might not leave space for somebody else to. So I’m aware of that. I’m aware of how that looks in certain circles. On certain teams it might look a little bit different, but it’s that awareness first.

So for me, I know, I just know myself. I will pause. I will pause before I’m the first one to jump in and chime in. And I think on the opposite side … actually, I’ll be curious, Ren, where do you land on that? Are you someone who would normally chime in?

Ren:

Yeah, I think, as maybe what you’re exemplifying there might be an example of you making some space for someone.

Allison:

Yes. Thank you for clarifying that, yes. That would be an example of making space. Yes.

Ren:

Me too. Even though I’d probably fashion myself less of an extrovert, I am not afraid to have my ideas be heard. And so I’m more the person who’s like, “Okay, maybe I don’t have to be the first person to have my ideas heard.” And so yeah, I think I align with you maybe more on I could, but I try to make space. 

Allison:

Yes. So I think to answer your question, Ren and I described how that might look. It’s knowing yourself first, knowing yourself, and being observant of the people around you as well. Maybe you might notice that Sam rarely chimes in, right? If you were a manager, sometimes you can ask, too, like, “Hey, Sam, did you have anything else to add?” And Sam might very well say no to that, but at least you gave the space for it. So that’s what it means, is identifying what your tendencies are, making space for people as needed. And if you’re someone who’s a little bit hesitant to chime in, maybe you take a step forward and have some courage, and you do take up some space.

Ren:

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Exactly. And I think that’s a really good tool. If you’re ever in a forum, let’s say one of the ground rules, the standard procedures of your organization is that there will be lunch and learns or listening sessions where you’ll be able to sit in a room with your colleagues.

And that’s a great place to take space, to make space, is what can you do to create more space for people? And then if you’re ever … I always joke with leaders in the room. If I ask a question and you’re feeling those butterflies in your stomach like, “I don’t know, should I talk? I’ve got the answer, but I don’t want to.” I’m like, “Yes, that means yes. You. You. You there.”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Say what you have to say. And so yeah, I think that could be a really useful tool in some of these areas as we engage in this conversation. Is there any other way to take space, make space if you’re not already in a listening session, or you’re not already in that forum where we’re sitting in a circle talking to one another, other ways we can apply it? I don’t know. I’m kind of thinking about that myself.

Allison:

Yeah. Well, I think for the sake of what you and I are talking about for these more difficult conversations, I mean, it’s one thing to be in a meeting where somebody is asking about, “Should we put anything else on this PowerPoint,” a little bit easier to navigate type of things.

When it comes to those more difficult or challenging conversations … again, I think it will always start with self-awareness. And you have to want to understand the other person. And you, as that person, you also have to want to be understood.

Ren:

Oh, that’s interesting.

Allison:

And so I think in these more “difficult conversations,” what that can mean, and this can be very challenging, and I will speak for myself that it is for me, too. But what that can mean is listening to understand, removing judgment and the filter of your own values. And that I feel like we could talk about for 6 hours. That is very challenging.

Do I want to understand you? Am I in this conversation in which we very strongly disagree? Do I want to understand you? Because if I don’t, then why am I in this conversation? That’s what I would ask myself, right? I actually would want to answer that. Why am I entering this conversation, then? Because if I’m trying to be right, that’s not going to be an effective conversation, likely. But if I am seeking to understand you and I want to be understood, then we got something to talk about. But it’s hard. It’s hard.

Ren:

Yeah. Yeah. I think a couple of things. One is the awareness of yourself, kudos, but then not being triggered by the values conflict is, like, nirvana. That’s the goal of all the mystics, is how do I not be offended by the things that offend me? And so I think it is interesting. Yeah. Does that make you feel —

Allison:

No, no, no. Finish. Please finish.

Ren:

Yeah. And maybe that’s where we’re starting to get here, because as you’re talking, I’m going, okay, really what we’re talking about is emotional intelligence, which is having an awareness of your own emotional response to things and regulating it, having an awareness of others’ emotional response to thing, and helping to regulate the environment. And that’s sort of what you’re doing as a leader in these spaces is, if your company, fine, has ground rules that say we never talk about things outside of the work, we only talk about the office here. I mean, good luck. I don’t know if that’s even possible.

But if you’re in an organization where we may discuss these things, either informally or provide formal spaces for it, I think leaning into that creation of that space to liberate ourselves a little bit from “your perspective doesn’t invalidate my perspective.” And that’s not a strong muscle. Maybe that’s what I meant where we started, which is we don’t have the skill built. We don’t have the muscle built up for someone to say something, and them not even tear down my idea, but because I identify with my idea and their idea is different from mine, therefore different from my identity, I kinda like bristle. And then when it comes to our political future or the existence of a lot of that, if we want to have cordial conversations, it becomes even more challenging.

Allison:

It’s so difficult, right? And so I think maybe for a lot of people where the work is, or where the self-investigation, if you will … because yes, it is regulation, but I also think there’s another step to this that maybe we’ll start to dig into here, is that for a lot of people, values guide how they determine right from wrong. And, to your point, if we can expand our perspective and hold other people’s values to also be true, then it’s not as easy to just sit there and blame one another for everything. But it’s just hard, right? It’s hard.

It’s not as easy to say, like, if you and I disagree on whatever it is we disagree upon, if I can hold your values to be true and mine at the same time, that’s like this magical formula where then we can move forward. But it’s really, really hard. And again, I’m not talking about should the font be this or this. I’m talking about some of these life events that happen that dramatically impact people’s values systems and how they live. So again, if I can hold yours to be true at the same time as mine, then what? It opens up partnership. Because those types of conversations need to be a partnership, and it’s easier said than done, for sure.

Ren:

Well, and you joke about the text. So Ryan Gosling did a skit and then a return skit on SNL. And it was about this guy who was mad that Avatar, the movie Avatar, James Cameron’s films, just used Papyrus. That’s the font he used.

Allison:

The font? I didn’t even know that.

Ren:

The font is just Papyrus, yeah. Well, I don’t know if it is. I have not fact-checked it, but Ryan Gosling, the character’s mad, because this billion dollar movie, and he’s like this digital designer. What did he do? He just clicked through and picked Papyrus. And the follow-on was he thought, okay, there was some creation, but all he did for Avatar 2 was bolded it. But it speaks to … You said you weren’t referring to text. And I think what that skit tells me is that, for that guy, the font mattered to him. It mattered him as deeply as anything else may matter to him.

And so I think when we start to talk about values, we get to do, my favorite thing is really start to talk about the identity signs of it all. Not only do I recognize your values are true, mine are true, but none of it’s really true. All of it’s kind of whatever. Now I know what an amorphous, esoteric concept. But if we can say, if can liken our beliefs to that of our preference in fonts, then maybe, yeah, we can engage in partnership because really, what are they?

Now, I guess some people’s beliefs, especially when they might begin to infringe on another person’s beliefs, then we become into this real, real conflict. But again, when I start to think about that, I think about how everyone I talk to has that experience. No matter where they fall on any spectrum, often we agree that we feel conflict when someone’s values encroach on our values.

Allison:

A hundred percent.

Ren:

Yeah. That’s the bridge maybe.

Allison:

Sorry, I got excited.

Ren:

No, please, no. Get in there. I’m saying that might be the bridge as a leader. That is a truth we all share.

Allison:

It is.

Ren:

Can we move forward from there? I don’t know. Is that a start point or is that just an end point? Is that a nothing? I don’t know. What do you think?

Allison:

It’s all of the above. I don’t know.

Ren:

Yeah, exactly. Very true.

Allison:

If we think about your example of this person has a value, it sounds like, for fonts. To me, I’m being mindful because it sounds silly when I say it out loud, and this was an SNL skit, it sounds like. But if this were real, if this were real for you, and this is such a good example too, of the norm around assuming positive intent.

If you, Ren, were getting a little charged about font, and we’re working on a project together, I’m going to assume that it’s meaningful for you. And again, this is a little bit of a … I almost said a smaller example, but maybe it’s not, I don’t know. I’m going to assume that it’s important to you. Versus being like, “What is wrong with that guy? Why in the world does he care so deeply about font? That’s so stupid.” Getting out of my own judgment, right? I’m going to assume positive intent. I don’t know. Maybe you had a really bad day. I have no idea.

But the more you and I can be in partnership together, the better. And I promise most people … Again, it’s easier said than done. I’m not claiming that this is easy. But the more you can do that, the work’s going to be a lot less painful, I promise.

Ren:

Well, it’s like decoupling our experience.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Ren:

In that instance, if you were real bent out of shape about Sans Serif, you’re like, “I cannot have any weird shapes on my letters.” And I’m like, “No, we’re doing” —

Allison:

Comic Sans.

Ren:

Yeah, we’re doing Times New Roman. And you’re like, “No, I can’t!” Then I would say, “All right, dude, you do you.” And that’s because your judgment on fonts is no judgment on my humanity. And I guess that it might be oversimplifying it, but I think that’s the essence of what we’re talking about, is that you as my colleague, we might like every single thing. We might share all of the exact same preferences, beliefs, work preferences, you’re my work friend. And then we differ on this one major, major event.

And we both voted in 2 different directions. And we sit here in this space, and I think we recognize this truth that you and I are likely having a lot more similar experiences than any other kind of differing experiences. And I think those are the spaces for us to remind each other about how we might engage, how we might have useful conversation, and how in these management spaces we might remind each other that your experience, whether you’re elated or sad, is not my experience.

And we can have differing experiences, because we have differing experiences about every other thing that we have on our list. Sometimes we’re just really aligned on our preferences. Sometimes we’re not. But our experiences are our own. So you like Comic Sans? I’m not going to get bent out of shape out of that.

Allison:

No, I do not.

Ren:

Yeah, you do.

Allison:

Got to clarify that one.

Ren:

I know you do. It’s going to be on your headstone.

Allison:

Okay.

Ren:

That’s morbid. It’s too dark.

Allison:

We’ll have a good laugh. It’ll be fun.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Well, I think all of this, again, coming back to the question that you asked right at the beginning, which is what is a leader’s responsibility?

Because again, we’ve all been in meetings where 10 people just cannot get on the same page, whether it’s about the font size or the font color, whatever. It could be that simplified, and you’ve seen people get really charged about that. So leaders do navigate those types of conversations a lot. And so then you up the ante, right? You up the ante.

Whereas one of my friends was telling me that her son, who’s a teenager, refuses to eat any food that’s by a certain brand — I won’t mention it — because that brand contributes to climate change, and it’s just the hill that he will die on. So how do you navigate the conversations when they become that type of topic, right? It is different. It’s different. And some people get a little bit more elevated around certain topics. And so do you make space for it? Do you cut it off? A different girlfriend of mine would say, “I would set it.” She has said, “I would set a norm that we are not going to talk about certain topics.”

But you’ll still feel a certain vibe from your team. So what are your thoughts about that, Ren, of as a leader saying we’re not talking about 1, 2, and 3.

Ren:

I think about first date etiquette or cocktail party etiquette. What’s the number one rule on a first date?

Allison:

I don’t know.

Ren:

About what you should talk about. I bet you do. What do you say in polite —

Allison:

Oh, you probably don’t talk about politics, I’m sure, right?

Ren:

Yeah. You don’t talk about politics, you don’t talk about religion, you don’t talk about the economy. You don’t talk about your personal romantic histories. Right?

Allison:

Dude, I think … I’m sorry to call you, dude, I just really —

Ren:

Please.

Allison:

… made us casual here, but you and I have not, I don’t think, been in the dating world for a long … I think that’s changed.

Ren:

Is it?

Allison:

I think that dating etiquette has changed.

Ren:

Well, maybe, but I mean —

Allison:

I’m pretty sure.

Ren:

I was talking to a colleague of ours the other day and we were just talking about … Maybe in the workspace it’s one of those things where … for the most part, at least generationally … gosh, maybe, I don’t know if it’s new. If you’re a Gen Z or younger, what’s the younger one? There’s 2 of them. Gen Alpha?

Allison:

Alpha.

Ren:

Yeah, if you’re Alpha or Z out there, @ Allison and tell her what you think, if you guys talk about politics, religion, economics, or your romantic histories. Because I feel like that’s kind of etiquette where you don’t cross those bridges because … I don’t know, I guess you’re trying to present a facade or not trying to scare someone off.

And so I wonder, is that etiquette appropriate for the workspace, and are they the same environment? This is what I mean, though. We’re so unskilled at having these conversations. There used to be a time in America where we would revel. This used to be just … you and I could debate about football and we could debate around our senatorial race, and then we could high-5 each other and we can go get lunch. And it is like there’s certain things where, I don’t know, culturally maybe we’re so … And I think it goes back to what we’re identified with, where we’re so identified with these meta concepts that talking about “it” is talking about “me.”

And so I guess if I knew, maybe this goes back to your “it depends” and answer your friend’s question. If I knew I was in an organization where people were so closely identified with certain ideals, then maybe, yeah, I might suggest it to the people in the organization, if it were small enough. Do you all think there should be a way we operate, when something like this comes up, because of how impassioned we are about our beliefs, we decide to just table that.

Now, I mean, that’s like bottling up a hydrogen bottle or something, where it’s tense, and it might blow up, but so I could see some value in … if you knew everyone enough and everyone agreed that yeah, we can’t have a safe conversation, so we shouldn’t talk about it. Maybe that’s what I would say.

Allison:

Yeah, and I would add to that too, if … Again, it’s so gray. I think if it were me leading a meeting after a major event, and let’s say … I’m making this up, but let’s say there were 5 people in that meeting, or 10 even, and I noticed that person A, person B, and person C looked a little down, I would check in with them privately after. And it’s not because I think I can solve anything, because I probably cannot, but it is to offer some emotional awareness of, “Hey, am I reading you correctly? You seemed a little down, or something was off. Is there anything you want to talk about?” And that’s it, right?

And again, I do think it is a leader’s responsibility to offer that space. Always. I mean, not always, no, because sometimes that could get out of hand. Because, back to your earlier point, me, I have a responsibility to regulate myself. I have a responsibility to that. But sometimes things are overwhelming, and sometimes life is overwhelming. So I think it’s okay to check in with people and be like, “Hey, Ren, you seem a little off. Everything good? Do you want to talk about anything?” And you might very well be like, “No, I’m fine.” But you offer the space.

Ren:

Yeah. I think it’s so hard when issues can be so divisive, but if I care about you, and if I can put that forward and use that as my beacon, then I could say … like I would check in with you on any other time. And so I love that idea. I’m in the meeting with you. I noticed your behavior, and I also love this too, from a leadership standpoint, you as a manager or leader or team member be a keen observer of behaviors. We all recognize patterns. If someone’s a little bit down and you can see it, and you’re like, okay, hey, what I mean by down is you weren’t talking as much as you usually do. You’re usually cracking more jokes or you’re smiling more. You’re usually the first one in, even though you’re trying to work on making space, but this time you didn’t say a single thing, you might say, “Hey, are you feeling okay?”

And that’s all you would need to do. And maybe, too, as you think about these tough conversations, people, is how are you feeling? And for someone to just talk about how you’re feeling. Can I hear how you’re feeling, regardless about what it is you’re feeling? If you’re feeling loss, does it matter what your loss is experience, if I deem your loss valuable? It’s like, “Oh, you lost a dear pet. Oh, was it a cat or a dog?” It was a canary. It was like, “Oh, well, birds suck.” No, I’m not going to say that to your face. So it’s like … Yeah, am I thinking it? No, birds are great.

But it’s like, my job is to care that you care. And if we both care that we care … I think you said something important around partnership earlier. It’s that recognition that we’re … I don’t know, though. Sometimes it can be tough, but hopefully you could like … we’re going to be okay, because it’s going to be okay. Right?

Allison:

Well, I think 2 things. It is coming back to what I mentioned earlier, which is removing your own judgment. Which, whether you think it in your head or not, is a different story. But that is one of the best vehicles towards having a difficult conversation with somebody, is I’m going to remove my own judgment and speak for myself.

I will speak for myself, versus saying what you just said degrades all of humanity. I’ll speak for me and say what you just said was hurtful because of whatever.

Ren:

Because I felt degraded.

Allison:

Yeah. If that is, in essence, what you felt, right? So you’re right. We’re not very good at it. And I think one of the reasons, I think, we’re not good at it is because we’re used to being reactive. Another reason is that things are coming at us fast, like you mentioned the echo chamber earlier. So when you said that, and I was sort of wavering a little bit with a response to that, because I don’t know if I’m in an echo chamber. I probably am on social media. I probably am. But the news alerts that I get that are prompted by, I think my iPhone. I think. Actually, I don’t even know. Somebody can tell me how to turn those off.

My iPhone is the one who’s pushing stories to me. And I don’t know. Do you know? I don’t know. Is it pushing the stories that it hears me talk about, which is creepy? I don’t know. So I’m not really sure. But my point is we’re inundated with a lot of information. Most of it’s negative, and it’s overwhelming. And when we’re overwhelmed, for most people, if you’re not regulated, puts your nervous system into a blender, basically, and makes you more reactive. That is psychologically what can happen for a lot of people. So if you’re not aware of how you’re feeling … Let me rephrase that. It’s a good idea to be aware of how you’re feeling before you enter into any sort of dialogue that could be charged.

Ren:

And there’s something about dispelling the charge, and that’s something, language that … guys, it just haunts me as I think about personal relationships and the growth that I need to get into. It’s like, how do I maintain perspective with someone? Well, I typically find that I’m uncharged by their activity, like them reacting about a font size. I don’t care. And that’s what we mean by charge. If I’m closely connected to something, and someone does something that really, really amps me up or bothers me, it lifts my charge. And that’s the secret to, I think, serenity, is trying to reduce your charge, but that’s some of the values stuff we were talking about earlier, really hard to do.

So I think practically, there’s something about the sequential nature of these conversations. How do you get into a room that is a place where you can safely off gas, where no one will judge you for your lesser demons?

To then, with the mind’s eye of preparation for a more regulated conversation … where you and I, Allison, let’s say we clearly disagree on something and we’re mad about it. Great. I would never tell anyone to not be mad or happy or not experience their emotions. Let’s experience our emotions. Let’s not talk in this moment. Let’s experience them. Let’s do whatever catharsis we need to, to get rid of the lizard brain energy, and let the prefrontal cortex articulate how we’re feeling. Which is I think the root of … We talk about SBI and the feedback model. It removes judgment. It’s supposed to be … It’s nonjudgemental, which is why it’s so impactful.

And so I think you expel your charge in a safe environment. Then prepare yourself to have a difficult conversation. Or you know you’re going to disagree, or someone may say something that you’re not going to agree with, but then you’re preparing yourself for it, and you remind yourself maybe of what’s the goal here? And I think you said it earlier, maybe some of the goal is to seek understanding? I don’t know. You’ve got to ask yourself, or each other in a tough conversation, what are we trying to accomplish here? That’s probably a good start point, too.

Allison:

Definitely. And I want to underline knowing why you’re entering the conversation is so important, because a lot of times if we don’t get the response that we want, it can be because we didn’t know what we were trying to get out of the conversation in the first place. So we didn’t aim the conversation in that direction, or we didn’t ask for it.

Sometimes people just want to be heard and understood, and literally that’s it. Some people want to understand your perspective, sometimes they don’t. Sometimes people want an apology, sometimes … Whatever it may be, know why you’re entering into the conversation in the first place. It doesn’t mean that you wouldn’t change your mind or change the direction, because there are 2 people involved. But again, if I’m not willing to understand you, Ren, in a conflict, if I’m not willing, then we’re not in a partnership. We’re not.

Ren:

Yeah. Well then, not to do a doorknob here, with our hand on the door as we’re ready to leave saying something big. It’s like, well, does partnership matter? Generally, in humanity, and then I guess in the workspace, right? Because your premise only works if I care about partnering with you.

Allison:

Not necessarily. If you and I have to work together —

Ren:

No?

Allison:

I see what you’re saying, and I agree with you. I’m just adding to it. If you and I have to work together on every single client team, all of them — this is hypothetical — then I’m doing myself a disservice to not try to understand you. Because I will be miserable. Not you. I will.

Ren:

Right. What a great reminder.

Allison:

Again, there’s a spectrum, though. It depends. You have to be able to identify what’s most important to you. I don’t want to be miserable at work. I don’t. There are going to be people I don’t get along with. That’s just the reality. And you too, and to all of our listeners.

But it is to what extent does it matter to you, and to what extent do you want to understand that other person? Because we actually do have to partner to get work done. We actually do. I’m not saying partner in a personal relationship necessarily, but some people do make good friends at work, regardless. I think, again, it’s gray.

Ren:

Yeah, yeah. Some of what you were talking about reminds me of … we’re often just in our own experiences, maybe a little less worried about someone else’s … We think people are really concerned about us, and people are concerned about, I think, themselves … in the best way. I mean, there’s a lot going on for everyone.

And I think trying to make space, or that collaboration to recognize that there’s a lot going on for all of us, might be one of those things that we can do to start to build up the muscle. And maybe like you said, not only know where the conversation is going, but determine what success would look like here. How long can we go before someone makes a strict statement, before we don’t do open-ended questions? And maybe some formatting or some kind of alignment around process could be really useful.

Allison:

Definitely. I think there are … I’m looking at the time, because I feel like we could keep going easily for a while, but maybe we can do a part 2 or something. But I think there are a couple really key steps that leaders can take away. Or just humans at work, regardless of your position. Even though at CCL we say that leadership is not necessarily a given position.

So if you are at work and you’re leading any sort of team, or you’re leading a meeting, you’re leading a project, it’s a really good idea, regardless of what’s going on in the world, it’s a really good idea to set norms on how you’re going to work together. That’s a really good idea.

I would say another key step is for you as an individual to identify when you are about to be dysregulated, and perhaps wait on having a conversation if you are feeling “dysregulated.” I’m going to name one more, and then I’ll see if you have anything to add, Ren.

Another thing that we talked about was what we would call, at CCL, listening to understand, which is a layer deeper than active listening. Listening to understand really means removing my own judgment in service of truly understanding your perspective, not listening to prove my own values or prove my own point. It truly is listening to understand you, and what you value, and what you’re feeling and experiencing. Anything else you might add for people to take away?

Ren:

I think I’ll just double click on that activity. So part of the listening understand we do is identifying not only the facts of the issue, but what are the values? What is someone feeling? And so maybe when you engage in something, especially something you know you disagree with, can you seek some understanding? Then actively work to identify what they’re feeling and their values that they might be having. And then, step 2, map those to your own feelings and values.

And I would bet, more often than not in most conflict situations, a lot of quick work could lead you to the fact that, wow, we are mirroring each other right now. Our values might be different, but our feelings are nearly at the same space, and it’s because of what, right? Then we get to identify what the “because of what” is, and start to remind ourselves of all the things that we have in common. At least, in the very least, we have in common the mechanism upon which we’re being wounded.

And so I think we can humanize each other once we realize that we’re value-based people, and a lot of us share almost a lot of the same values, if not in word, in sentiment.

Allison:

I like what you said there about humanizing one another, and maybe I can wrap us up after that, because I kind of want to keep going, but I won’t.

Ren:

Yeah, no, for sure.

Allison:

I like what you said about humanizing, because I think what can happen oftentimes is that we cut people off because we don’t want to have —

Ren:

Wait, what? I’m just kidding.

Allison:

I mean, from being in any sort of relationship, not even just in dialogue. It’s like, no, this is over. This is done. I’m not going to talk to you about this. So there’s a time and a place to do that, too. I know someone will argue me on that, but for the most part, we get uncomfortable instead, and then we exit the conversation and hightail it out of there, and that’s that.

And then we assign meaning or judgment to the other person. While Ren and I had this conversation, it was icky, I got out of it, and Ren now is … whatever I decide that he is. Ren is a jerk. Ren is this, Ren is that, when it was one conversation. And Ren, I like what you said about humanizing other people as well, and humanizing the conversation and remembering that we are 2 human beings versus something to unload all of our blame onto.

And so perhaps we can leave it at that for now and, I don’t know, maybe do a part 2. I can see you thinking.

Ren:

Yeah, I like that. No, that’s a good one. That’s good. Good mic drop. Let’s not find people to shovel our blame onto, and I think the word of the day might be partnership. Tough conversations are a little bit easier in partnership, so thanks for partnering, Allison.

Allison:

Indeed. Yes, thanks. Thanks, Ren. As always a great conversation. And if you are listening, please find us on LinkedIn. We’re also on Instagram. Let us know what thought of this conversation. Let us know what you think. Let us know what you want us to talk about next.

And to all of our listeners, you can find all of our CCL podcasts and show notes on CCL.org, and to our CCL team who works tirelessly behind the scenes to get our podcasts up and running, we thank you and appreciate you. And Ren, I’ll look forward to chatting next time.

Ren:

Absolutely. Thanks, Allison. Thank you, everybody. See you next time.

Find Allison on TikTok.