Lead With That: Leadership Lessons From the Movies

Interview Transcript

Ren:

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at the way leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

It’s the Oscars, baby! The 2025 Oscar race isn’t just about dazzling performances and jaw-dropping cinematography. It’s also a masterclass in leadership sometimes. Whether it be Paul Atreides navigating the treacherous sands of Arrakis, or Eunice Paiva’s relentless pursuit of justice in I’m Still Here, this year’s top films showcase characters who command, inspire, and challenge the very notion of power.

By the time you’re listening to this, you’ll know if Adrian Brody won again, if cardinals reign supreme, or if a sci-fi movie based on a 60-year-old book finally takes home the gold. In this episode, though, we’re breaking down the standout leaders on the silver screen. Visionaries, revolutionaries, and those who led not by choice sometimes, but by necessity. Whether it’s the quiet resilience of Sing Sing’s Divine G or the political maneuvering of the Conclave’s Cardinal Lomeli, these stories give us real insight into what it takes to lead in the face of adversity. Today we’re looking beyond the awards to explore the leadership lessons hidden in Hollywood’s biggest films of 2024.

Welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington. As usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, favorite movie this year, or favorite character?

Allison:

Well, full transparency, I mentioned to you already that I haven’t seen most of the films that are nominated. But I am, gosh, excited to talk about my favorite character, who is Elphaba from Wicked. I am most excited, honestly, to see all of the films that have been nominated, but The Substance with Demi Moore really stands out to me and interests me. I believe she was nominated, this is her first nomination, I believe, as Best Actress. I think, given her tenure in the acting world, I’m eager to see her in this film.

What about you?

Ren:

Yeah. The Substance looks spooky, and weird, and strange, and interesting.

Well, my favorite films of this year are not even nominated. Or I would say, some of my favorite films are Monkey Man, Dev Patel’s Monkey Man, great. Mad Max, The Furiosa Saga, that’s fantastic. Civil War, Alex Garland, my favorite author, my favorite director. All of my movies that I really like to see are like, okay, the Academy says I have no taste. None of them were elected or selected.

I did see Dune 2, though. So I hear you. You didn’t watch all of these. I feel like that’s a running joke with the Oscars. You have to have watch parties to watch all the best movies. Shouldn’t you have watched them up to this time? But either way, I did a little bit of research, so I’m excited to poke and prod, and look into some of these characters. Because I think what got me started on this is, I was reading a few articles as they’re generally posted about who the best actors are or what the best movies are. It just seemed, I don’t know if it’s just this year, but so many years it’s like, okay, a central figure, this catalyzing idea, and some of them, in a lot of them, in leadership positions. I was like, “Well, let’s talk about some of these things.” Then maybe, as we’re listening, people can hear it and be like, “Oh, I saw that.” Or as we watch the awards we can be like, “Hmm, the award went to the best leader.”

But I don’t know, let’s start maybe with something that you have seen, and we can look at Wicked. We can talk about some of the characters in there. But specifically, I think maybe some of our charge this episode is, what are we seeing in these characters that we see either work or don’t work in leaders and leadership.

What’s the one’s name that we were just talking about from … ? 

Allison:

Elphaba.

Ren:

… Wicked … Elphaba.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

I’m going to say that name, one time, the correct way, I promise.

Allison:

Me and you both, yeah. I think there’s a lot to talk about with her. And what immediately comes to mind is that she challenges the status quo. I am a sucker for that type of character, though. She questions authority. Her character has several ties, I think, to leadership, but specifically she feels the need to challenge or investigate broken systems, things that aren’t working, and really push for change that is meaningful and sustainable. And so that’s one thing.

I also really appreciate … Well, I should say there’s going to be a spoiler in what I’m about to say, so if you don’t want a Wicked spoiler, maybe fast-forward. But I also appreciate the friendship that is developed between Galinda, “Glinda the Good Witch,” and Elphaba. It’s tested but it remains meaningful in that film. I think you and I talk a lot here on the podcast, and at CCL, about building genuine relationships even with those who have differing perspectives, and how valuable it can be in business and the workplace to connect with people with differing perspectives. And I think therein lies some of the power of collective leadership, and collaboration, and innovation, et cetera. I think their friendship also highlights some relational leadership skills as well.

Ren:

Yeah. Admittedly, I think I only know the periphery of any of these characters. I don’t know, it’s been a long time since I’ve dipped my toes into The Wizard of Oz universe. I did see the Ariana Grande grabbing that woman’s finger …

Allison:

Yes!

Ren:

… who plays Elphaba. I think there’s something there about the relationships. Yeah, Cynthia Erivo is her name. I think it’s interesting — and we’re going to try not to dither into a space that’s going to be too electric or incendiary — but in times when we’re looking out around us for difference and maybe looking more for difference than those that unite, it does seem interesting that this character who seems to be misunderstood, ostracized, due to her appearance and some of her abilities, we really get to see that unwavering commitment to maybe some equality. Or like you said, some of the systemic ills. And then the ability for, I think, the partnership, the friendship, the collaboration to form in those spaces. Those are the areas where I think, “Oh, leadership lesson right away.” What are you doing to make bridges versus cut down bridges?

Allison:

Yeah, absolutely. I think, too, there’s some leadership lessons in that film around facing adversity, which I sort of  imagine are in some of the films that you’ve referenced as well. I’d be curious to hear from you on that note.

She, Elphaba, she remains committed to her cause, so it’s a testament to a few things, again, that we talk about a lot here. Like adversity, growth mindset, navigating challenge and disruption. It is the hard work of a leader, it really is. Who you are in those times of disruption and difficulty can really show, actually, your true character as a leader. That was another connection point that I made.

Curious for you, if there’s anything in the films that you mentioned that tie in to what we’re starting to talk about?

Ren:

I hadn’t highlighted a theme, so much as what I could call this magnetic focus on these singular characters. And as I say this out loud I’m like, well, is that different from any movie?

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

I guess some ensembles are different. But you saying the word adversity, it was like, oh, oh, wait a minute. I think that we know, too, in film or story, it’s not interesting unless our heroes or our characters face some adversity. But when I tell leaders, I’m like, “The only thing I can guarantee you is change is coming for you and adversity is at the door.”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

That’s a really interesting thing. Maybe part of this conversation is coming up for us, or that will naturally, is as a leader, what can you do to forge through adversity? I would say already with Elphaba and Galinda, the idea of collaboration, partnership, relationship building, those are some of the foundational pieces I think you can do to push through adversity.

Allison:

Yeah, for sure. And I don’t want our whole episode to be on Wicked. I mean, it can be. But I’ll also say that her character, both of their characters rather, her and Galinda, really show that authenticity, integrity matter as well. There’s something in their storyline too, around how easy it is to misunderstand one another and how quickly that can happen, too.

If I were to tie it back to business and the workplace, it would be around encouraging leaders to check in on their core values and align their decisions as best you can. Align your business decisions or your leadership decisions as best you can with your core values. And checking in with them, especially when times are tough and things are very much disrupted.

Ren:

Yeah, the misunderstanding. It’s like on our Better Conversations framework, the Better Conversations isn’t just you and I having a better conversation for our sake. But if we have a misunderstanding, and that misunderstanding starts to trickle through the organization and our teams, all of a sudden then it’s got this echo of missed opportunities. As opposed to those spaces where we’re really going to try to have to connect and make sure that we’re abundantly clear. It’s like over-communication. I always say I’ve never had a client tell me, “Ren, we talk too much.” They say it like they talk too much about things that don’t matter. But no one’s ever like, “Hey, stop. We have too many meetings where we’re clear about our intent and we know what we’re working towards together. How do we stop doing that?” No one ever asks me about that.

Then I’m wondering, too, I’m combing through my list going, “What other instances are we seeing here where either communication is misplaced or communication is critical?” I think a little bit about Conclave, which I think is a really interesting idea: this fictionalized look behind the curtain for the papacy. How does the pope get chosen? This is the one where Ralph Fiennes, or “Ralph” as I call him at family dinners. Ralph Fiennes, he plays this cardinal as the dean of the College of Cardinals. Conclave looks at the secretive process of electing a new pope and highlighting some of those political and spiritual tensions within the Catholic Church. Okay, communication. Or what I think, too, is political savvy.

How do I communicate effectively with awareness of my environment? I think that’s what Conclave is about. Who are the players? Who do we have to navigate? How do I make sure our pope gets picked? Or really, the thing we want to happen, how do we make sure that happens? Maybe that’s something that’s interesting in that space around communication or savvy. I don’t know. I don’t know, what do you think?

Allison:

Oh, definitely. I hear a lot from clients, and just commonplace conversation with folks, around this notion that, “Ah, I don’t want to have to be politically savvy at the workplace.” It has this negative connotation, when it’s really neutral.

Maybe you could talk a little bit about that. Because actually, Ren, I don’t know if you’ll remember this, this was so long ago. I’ve been with CCL for what, almost 8 years now, and you have longer than I. You trained me on some of our content, our Lead 4 Success content around political savvy. I remember that, and I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about it being a neutral concept?

Ren:

Yeah, Allison. What you say right there, that idea of the neutrality of politics. I think because of just, geez, the way politics is experienced in America, or just as people, politics is so charged. And politics means something.

But when I think about political savvy in its neutral nature, I think about the root word: polis — people engaging in communication. Politics is, when we say political savvy, we just mean the awareness of your environment. And because in work, people have authority, people have connections, there’s formal and informal power, political savvy speaks to the idea of awareness of my environment and the power structures at play. There’s nothing inherently villainous, I think, about this idea of political savvy. But instead, it’s how can you approach your environment with cleverness, with intent, with honesty and transparency?

I think that’s some of the things that characterize Ralph Fiennes’ character is this idea … Apparently, he navigates all these complexities with transparency, pushing for unity, trying to be humble, honoring his position in the history of it. That’s some kind of awareness that, if I could stay neutral myself in this crazy system, then I have some savvy.

It’s funny, too. The word savvy is coming up for me recently. Because I don’t know how often you use it or we use it in conversation, but it’s such an interesting word. What does savvy even mean? I said the word “clever.” It’s like this adeptness. It’s like this really smart adeptness of reading the terrain and moving through it. Again, there’s nothing, “aneutral” about reading the terrain and moving through it. There’s nothing necessarily polarizing about that idea. It’s what we do as we navigate those things. Now, that might be polarizing.

I think that’s what I would say for political savvy. It’s just your general awareness with some skill and some intent of moving through your environment.

Allison:

Yeah, that’s great. I love how you frame it, because it really is more about awareness of, not realities, that sounds a little heavy, but just the context of your environment. One thing that we’ve done with clients before — I’m sure you’ve done too — is think about the informal and the formal policies, if you will, behaviors. There are formal policies of course, in every single organization, but there are also informal. If you can be aware of those informal nuances … A really benign example would be don’t cook your fish in the microwave when you’re in a shared space. That’s an informal taboo thing to do.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

But each organization has their informal nuances, and I think that can help you to be aware of the environment that you’re in.

But back to the film that you were mentioning. Are there any examples that you could share, or anything else you want to say about that?

Ren:

Well, when I think about adversity, it’s interesting, I think, when stuff gets worse. There’s this old adage in football and in sport, I think you’ve probably heard it, where it’s like, “Adversity reveals character.” But the adage in football goes. … “Adversity creates character,” or something, I think is the traditional adage.

Allison:

Okay.

Ren:

In football, it’s like, “Adversity reveals character.” Where even though hard times help build who you are, but when you hit hard times, it’s easy to get into your reflexive postures, to get defensive and protective. And when I think about this neutral navigating through it, it seems to say, as this cardinal leverages his relationships around the papacy, but also staying true to his relationship with himself. The ethical steadfastness, I think that’s an aspect of, A, moving through adversity, and also being politically savvy. It’s who am I? And despite what’s happening around me, can I maintain my position and my posture?

That’s a really interesting segue, I think if we move to Dune 2, and we look at Paul Atreides. Have you seen any of the Dunes?

Allison:

I’ve seen none of the Dunes, but that’s okay.

Ren:

None of the Dunes. Well, we have some of the best dunes in the world here in Colorado, so we’ll take a trip to Alamosa. Yes, I think this Dune and our little Timothée Chalamet, who is actually being nominated a couple times this year. He played Bob Dylan. I think he’s pretty awesome. I think he’s a fun young talent. But he’s the head of this House Atreides that was betrayed by these other royal houses. It really explores, I think, this person’s journey through a lot of different spaces. But one of the spaces I think it really explores is this idea of how I can stay true to myself. And what does that even mean?

There’s even an exchange between 2 of the main characters where it’s … one of them commits to … they’re in love with each other. It’s like, “I’ll love you forever. Yeah, as long as you stay who you are.” It’s an interesting idea about how maybe easier said than done it is to stay who you are.

How might we as leaders either corral or maintain our identities of who we are to move through adversity or anything else?

Allison:

Well, you know I’m going into a philosophical rabbit hole in my head as I’m listening to you.

Ren:

Let’s do it.

Allison:

I’m like, “Oh, what an intense question.” Because, is there a correlation between what you’re saying and adaptability? Because sometimes we do have to adapt. And does that mean we’re being inauthentic? I’m not really sure. But what does it mean to stay true to yourself? What does that mean?

Ren:

Yeah. Yeah, right. You’d have to determine a few things. What is self, and how much does self move from what self has to be? I thought what you were saying there is probably some polarity management.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

There’s parts of my character that have been the foundation of my life, that have contributed to a lot of my success. That it’d probably be irresponsible for me to ignore. And there’s other parts of my personality that, if I just stayed in them forever, I would not be better, I would not progress in my life. I might even be worse for it. There’s probably some conversation as a leader to say, “Okay, these are the things that I stand for.” I think that’s some of what Paul Atreides had to define for himself. It’s like, “What matters to me? Regardless of what the world wants from me, how do I want to show up, and for whom am I showing up that way?”

I think some of Paul’s experience is less heroic when you think about the books and how the movies are going to play out. He’s not this unfettered, “all-that-glitters-is-gold” kind of hero. There’s some decisions that he has made and has to make that are going to put some people in harm’s way. And maybe that’s a different leadership conversation. But the struggle he’s going through around what is my identity? Who am I? How is that going to impact not just me, but everyone around me?

Whether or not you can define what your self is, I think we as leaders have to ask ourselves who is around me? What do I know about them? And what do I know about the decisions that I might make that could either positively or negatively impact them?

Allison:

Right. And then what happens if you are forced with making a decision that negatively impacts people. Again, I know I’m taking us down some weird rabbit holes. But it’s true, at the workplace, you cannot please everybody. There are going to be decisions that you make that negatively impact people. How do you navigate that?

Ren:

Yeah. Something about expectation setting, I think.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

That’s another thing that comes up for me with Dune is there are so many expectations levied on this character. And so many places where he either has to set some expectations, put his foot down. Or just generally, if none of us are Paul Atreides and we’re trying to ride sand worms, but instead you’re at a team and you have to facilitate bad information, or hold space for your colleagues, I think you’ve got to be critically aware of just it’s more than me.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Not even it’s not just about me, but it’s more than me. The things that I do echo around, and in and around. I think as we think about all of our leadership today in adversity or in times of turmoil, sometimes we react. We’re like, “Look, I’m only putting out the fire. I’m not thinking 2 or 3 steps down the road.” But I think the very best leaders keep that in mind, and they do think 2 or 3 steps down the road.

Then they might make a bad decision that might harm someone, but maybe in the expectation setting with people you’d say, “Hey, sometimes I’m not going to make a decision that you like. But I am thinking down the road and this is why I made it.” Probably some transparency in there too, might help ease the tough decision.

Allison:

Yeah. And you mentioned polarity management, which we’ve talked about on the podcast a few times in the past. But you’re making me think of that right now too, in practicing, I guess you could say, empathy with a bit of directness too, on top of what you were just saying. The ability to take some more bold actions and prepare for opposition, if you will, in the workplace, even criticism. I think the ability to practice those 2 things, that transparency, directness, empathy. That’s 3, I suppose. But it can really serve you in staying true to who you are, and the decisions that you’ve made and why. And sharing your reasoning, if appropriate, behind the decisions.

Ren:

Yeah. I’m trying to think about a bridge here, because something that you said really, I think, got me thinking about Substance. Maybe it’s just this bridge of who I am, or managing my identities, or doing that polarity management. Because in Substance, there are 2 polarities. There is Elizabeth and then there’s Sue. There’s Demi Moore’s character, and then there’s Sue, her younger alter ego played by Margaret Qualley I think. That’s what happens, she takes a substance, she becomes this person. It’s this interesting dichotomy that you can have around what it looks like to navigate one’s self-acceptance in the face of all of these standards. And then the shadow side of ambition, and unrestrained pursuit of self-gratification, it seems like a really interesting exploration of a very obvious allegory maybe of our society today.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

I don’t know if there’s a direct connection to where we just were, but I’m trying to make one.

Allison:

Well, I think there probably is. Everything that we’re talking about is all relative. We could even talk about Demi Moore and her reinvention of herself many times. I haven’t seen the film yet, but I am excited to. It looks eerie, and interesting, and complex. Demi Moore though, she’s still who she is, I presume. Her legacy has shown how adaptable she also is / can be. If we think about her in the ’80s, I remember my mom, I can’t even name any films, but I remember her being in some romantic comedies. Then in some more dramatic roles. Do you remember the film GI Jane? Do you remember that movie?

Ren:

It’s one of my absolute favorite movies. Yes, I 100% remember it.

Allison:

It is?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Why do you love it?

Ren:

GI Jane is amazing. I like the training parts of that movie the best.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

It’s a fun and interesting character. It’s a girl sticking it to the boys, facing adversity. But there’s just something really charming about that story. Yeah, I know it well.

Allison:

Well, at the time, that was considered a controversial movie. I don’t know, was she thinking ahead of her time? I’m not sure. Did she just decide to do it because the role suited her? Who knows? But she was fully committed to that role. If you’ve seen it, you’ll probably remember that classic scene of her shaving her head, I remember that. To your point, she underwent some pretty intense physical military training that was fun to watch.

Again, I’m not suggesting that leaders need to shave their heads or do anything drastic like that, but I do think her risk-taking, if you will, as an actor, is a really nice correlation to some of the things we were just talking about. When you do feel the need to make a bold choice here and there, and you are faced with criticism. I don’t know that her decision to take that role hurt anybody necessarily, but she did face a lot of very harsh criticism after movies like that. There was another film she was in shortly after called Striptease. It’s just a reminder that sometimes you have to have a thick skin as a leader, and that resilience piece is so important.

Ren:

Yeah. I think resilience, it’s interesting, I think it shows up in Substance, but it also shows up in the stick-to-itive-ness of Demi Moore. How old did we say she was when we were looking earlier?

Allison:

According to Google, she’s 62.

Ren:

All right. Well, you know Google, a big source. No, I’m sure that you’re right. It’s wild just to think of someone who’s committed to their craft, who wants to keep on working, who just at this phase in their life is getting recognized on the brightest and biggest stage. And I think too, for exploring some of the concepts you mentioned. This character, Elizabeth, this aging star, has to maintain some thick skin and maybe doesn’t do it so well. And why, then, makes the decision to take this magical substance that might help me feel more like I should.

I think for a leader too, it’s interesting, the shoulds, and the oughts, and all of those things. Let’s just leave that stuff at bay. Instead of talking about what you should do, it’s what do you think you want to do? What do the people around you want you to do?

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

As opposed to an idea on Forbes, or X, or Twitter that tells you, “This is what good leadership looks like.” Well, maybe for a person or an environment.

I think there’s something about being resilient, especially in adversity. Sticking to it. Keeping on in the working. But then also, steeling yourself as a leader and being like, “Well, just because they do it like that over there doesn’t mean that I have to do it like it over here. Or that it would be as effective.”

Allison:

Yeah. I want to back up to something that you said just a moment prior to that statement you just made. Which is, I’m going to paraphrase what you said, but an element of decisiveness, and maybe even confidence, that I think sometimes newer leaders can struggle with standing firm in their decisions or being confident in making them.

I’m going to put you on the spot. Do you have any advice for folks who maybe are newer to a leadership role who struggle with that?

Ren:

Just so I answer the question right, new in a leadership role and struggle with what specifically?

Allison:

That decisiveness and this is what we’re doing moving forward kind of mentality.

Ren:

For me, recently it’s been coming down to the mindsets that we hold, especially around abundance or scarcity. When I think when we’re in a scarcity mindset — which is to say there’s not that many chances, there’s not that many opportunities, I can only make one mistake, or I can’t afford to make any mistakes — that mindset is a really tight mindset. It’s like you’re white-knuckling life and decisions. And because of that, the experience you have with risk, or defensiveness, or reactivity, I think when people are in a scarcity mindset, all that stuff is heightened. Especially in adversity, I don’t know if that’s really good.

But living in abundance, this idea that there are many opportunities, that this isn’t the end-all-be-all, that, I think, is an effective space to be in. When we think about innovative organizations or leaders, what they’re good at is failing fast. An abundance mindset helps you think, “Hey, I have one failure, because I have 10,000 more failures,” I think as Thomas Edison said. …

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

… Or “10,000 ways to learn not how to do it.” That’s an abundance mindset.

I think for anyone’s whose listening, you’re like, “I don’t really get it, Ren.” Think of any time you’ve ever interviewed for a job when you had a job.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Think about a time when you were ever romantically engaged with someone, you’re like, “Wow, it’s so much easier to talk to the people I used to be attracted to.” Because you’re playing with house money, man. There’s no risk on you. That’s the abundance mindset. What if you don’t hold onto stuff so tightly?

What if that decision for a new leader … You’re like, “Oh, God, I’m a new leader. I’ve got to knock this one out of the park.” Maybe. Or this would be one of thousands of decisions that you have to make. If we have a real growth mindset, where even if a failure is truly an opportunity to learn, then you can’t make a bad decision. I think it’s the rip-the-Band-Aid-off, new leader. Just make that call. Test and retest.

And it might loop back, Allison, to what we were saying about expectation setting. If I’m with a team and I’m with a new leader, I’d be like, “Here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to help to do X, Y, Z. But sometimes I’m going to make calls and they’re not going to work. Then we’re going to get back in a room together and talk about why they didn’t work. I won’t be sad, I won’t be upset, I hope you’re not either. We’re just going to use it and go.” I think that’s really interesting. That’s probably what I would say. A long-winded answer to your question.

Allison:

Yeah. In which, do you think that organizations have, can have rather, a culture of scarcity or a culture of abundance? Do you think that happens?

Ren:

Yes. Absolutely I think it happens. When we think of a typical S-curve in a business, where they grow and they shrink, and then they grow. Or you think about organizations that are missing budget or are going to fall short of their targets. Especially too, from an innovative standpoint. If you’re a company in innovation, and innovation often comes with spending money, but you’re not doing so well this year, and then there’s scarcity. “Hey, we don’t have that money. You can’t take this risk.” Or, “If we do give you money to take this risk, it better freaking work.” Those things, I think, that increases the scarcity mindset. 

The trickiest part, and maybe the true magic of scarcity and abundance, is regardless of your environment, can you internally cultivate abundance? And recognizing that someone might be knocking on your door and saying, “You better not mess this up.” And you’ll be like … “Okay.”

Allison:

All right.

Ren:

You give them a little shrug. You’ll be like, “But I still got to make a decision.”

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

“So I’m going to make this decision and we’re going to see how it goes.”

Allison:

Yeah. I think there’s a handy tool that we show in the classroom around the Sphere of Control. Can you picture that, those 3 circles?

Ren:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Allison:

To our listeners, if you can imagine 3 circles. A small, then a middle-sized, and then a larger-sized circle. The Sphere of Control is considering, in that smaller one, what am I responsible for? What are my responsibilities? The next one is what can we influence? What can you influence, rather. Then the last one, what is it that I need to accept?

I like to correlate some of the things you’re saying to that, too. It might not lead you directly to an abundance mindset, but the ability to focus on what you are responsible for and what you can influence will be energy well spent and will yield dividends. Versus you focusing on things that you simply need to accept about the organization, or the systems, or things that are not inherently going to change immediately, that you cannot influence at all.

Ren:

Yeah, I love that circle of influence, and the idea of what I can control, what I can influence, and what I have to accept. I think we work in some spaces where I have to tell people, “Acceptance isn’t that you have to accept that stuff sucks and it’s never going to change.”

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

Acceptance is more like you have to accept that in this moment, you can’t manage that ring. You’ve got to focus on your circle of control.

I think that’s such an interesting bridge to this movie that I think, of all of the movies, I think this one is maybe most heart-wrenching and that I want to see, but I also don’t want to see. It’s the movie I’m Still Here.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

The one set during Brazil’s military dictatorship in the ’70s. It tells the story of Eunice Paiva. Her husband, Rubens the congressman, is kidnapped and then murdered by the regime. Then it follows her 4-decade-long quest to try to find truth, to fight for justice amidst all this oppression.

But I think what’s interesting is her transformation from a grieving wife, who is like, what could you do? The whole government took something from you. It could be easy to get stuck in that ring of I’ve got to influence the government today. Or she then went to, “How do I fight for human rights?” I think about expanding your circle of control. If you want to get up to that point where you can’t accept, make your circle that big. Start to stretch out.

I think hers is an interesting story of so many people, of leaders or people who are thrust into positions when you’re in adversity. To say, “Well, what can I do about this today? Well, I can share my story with people who are hurt. We can unite, we can work together to fight for human rights. All of this stuff is in my control.” Versus being so paralyzed by the lack of control I have of the state system, or the economic system, or what your organization’s policies are, leader. It’s these things where there’s so many things that happen outside of your control that can be debilitating. But what’s empowering is saying, “What can I control?” Yeah, I think that’s such a good highlight.

Allison:

Yeah. What you’re saying can come back to what we were talking about earlier, even with political savvy and relationship building. Because how do you expand that circle of influence and the things that you can influence? One way that you can do it is by building those bridges and building relationships. You mentioned unity. Getting to know the folks that, at the workplace at least, that you work with in different functions. It does help you to expand that Sphere of Influence. And it helps you to understand different functions, which inherently would then give you more political savvy.

It’s so interesting how the things that we’re talking about really are tying into one another in ways that I didn’t expect.

Ren:

Yeah. It’s such a good lesson to know, and we talked about this earlier when I was alluding to the idea of it’s more than just you. All of this leadership stuff, none of it happens in a vacuum. We’ve got to know that one lever is connected to another. If I do one thing over here, it might very well impact something over here. And, too, I think just keeping that holistic perspective in the web of things …

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

… is also a way to recognize in the control realm. It’s like, “Hey, I have control over this.” Maybe it’ll trigger a domino for influence over here. And maybe it’ll start to shift some of the things that I’m forced to accept.

Yeah. All of it, I think, it’s an interesting reminder for you, listener, as leader or even a team member, it’s how can you keep the big picture in front of you as much as possible. That can give you perspective, but also help you see connections that, maybe when you’re right up against it, you can’t see.

Allison:

Yeah, I agree with you. A client recently made a somewhat joking and light statement to me. She said, “I’m so sick of people telling me to assume positive intent.” Then we had a nice conversation around why that might be. But to add to what you said, I think it’s assuming positive intent as well. Because if you are able to zoom out, see the big picture, you might start to understand and take less personally some of the decisions that had to be made, maybe by your senior team, or what have you. Things that feel very personal to you often times are not, even though it can feel that way. How does that tie into Sphere of Influence? It can really help you to tighten and develop those relationships in ways that you maybe didn’t have before, which again, adds to that collective process of leadership as it stands in general.

Ren:

And kind of where we started, with Wicked.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

It’s the relationship. I think we’ve very adeptly woven all this stuff together. That’s really interesting how … Yeah, I didn’t think that we had any intentional tethers like this.

Allison:

No.

Ren:

I thought there was something. There’s a lot of things connecting these characters and these ideas in these movies. Not just people moving through adversity, but people managing their own energy, managing their environment, helping understand what they can or cannot do.

I think something maybe that is solid here, and maybe something that we find interesting, and maybe a takeaway for me, is that even though it’s not all about you, it starts with you, listener. That’s maybe a polarity. How do I help you and me? How do I help us? Us is in the center. If I don’t do something though, if I don’t lean into my circle of control, if I don’t intentionally build relationships or diagnose my environment, then it’s unlikely something will change.

I tell leaders all the time, “If you don’t change your behavior, I can pretty safely tell you that nothing is going to change in your environment.” Sometimes things change that we can’t help. But for the most part, in the true sense of what we do have control over, if you keep doing the same things, you’re likely to get the same outputs. This empowerment in self …

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

… I think is a theme in some of these movies, too. It’s how does an individual push through these challenges? What can you do to maintain energy?

Allison:

Yeah. I think, gosh, lots of takeaways for me. Considering all of the actors and characters that we’ve talked about so far, I agree with everything that you just said, Ren, so I won’t be repetitive, and I’ll add to it.

Around controlling what you can control, how can you own your own narrative and your legacy as a leader? I think that’s an important thing to think about, too. And be intentional about shaping your professional and both personal legacy. And knowing that a lot of that is within your control.

Back to you, Ren. It does start with you: Who is it that you want to be as a leader, and how can you intentionally shape that?

Ren:

Maybe just one more tack-on to your note, and something I tell people all the time and I believe it. If you’re not telling your story, someone else is.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Your story is being told today, right now, in this moment.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Are you playing an active role in that? Are you helping create that legacy, helping shape that narrative? Or are you, because it’s not starting with you, just looking at it and saying, “Oh, well, I’ll let my work speak for itself?” Or, “I hope that this will go this way.” Again, maybe. But get in the game. Get active.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Help tell your story so you can help other people tell theirs, I think.

Allison:

Yeah. That’s well said. You’re just making me think of … legacy starts now, it starts in every moment. It starts in every single moment, in every interaction that you have. Being intentional about that and thoughtful will serve you in the long run as a leader, and really as a human being, too.

Well, Ren, what’s the first movie you’re going to watch?

Ren:

Probably The Gorge with Miles Teller and Anya Taylor-Joy. I don’t know. I’m trying think. What should I watch from this list? I guess The Brutalist, which we didn’t talk about. It’s supposed to be really fantastic.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Another Adrian Brody post–World War II film. Sing Sing looks super interesting to me — that story about the theater program inside of New York’s Sing Sing Correctional Facility. But, something about Oscar movies and the general weight of them. I’m carrying enough these days.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

I think I want to see 2 pseudo-young, sexy actors protect the gorge of hell from demons or something. I think I’m going with those 2.

Allison:

Okay. Well, I’m usually very late to the movies, but we’ll see. I have an interest in all of them. We’ll see what happens. Maybe we’ll come back to it in a few months after I catch up to the movie scene. Thanks for the conversation.

To our listeners, let us know what you think about the leadership in some of the movies that we’ve talked about, or previous movies that you’ve seen, previous films that have made an impact on you. To our listeners, you can find all of our show notes and podcast episodes on ccl.org. To our CCL team who works behind the scenes to get our podcast up and running, a big thank you to you.

Ren, I’ll look forward to hearing more about your movie Gorge …

Ren:

Yeah. Yeah, you’ll have to.

Allison:

… in the near future.

Ren:

I’ll likely tell you about it. It looks fun.

Allison:

Okay, great. Looking forward to it.

Ren:

Thanks, Allison.

Allison:

Thanks, Ren.

Ren:

Thanks, everybody. See you next time.

You can find Allison on TikTok again, right?

Allison:

For now.

Ren:

Yeah! Do it.